Why is "vassal" missing?

[Kalemenos]

I conquered an empire, and then it decided to become a Bulwark. (I hate it when it does that.) So I now want to make it a Vassal instead, to avoid the pointless expenses (30% in both basics and research). When I try to renegotiate the agreement, the option of "vassal" is missing. This happens from time to time.
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/2473118546386929018/1D8B34D6489D6CB5975C8214011515971310F353/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false

In other games, I have tried making the empire a different kind of vassal, like from Bulwark to a Scholarium, hoping that "vassal" would then appear on this list, but still it did not. Why is this? How can I fix this? (Note: ver. 3.7.3.)

[❤ Sly Succubus ❤]

So ya, thats a specialized vassal, specialized ones can't be changed into a normal vassal, only into other specialized vassal types, same with how normal vassals can't be changed into specialized ones. Simple thing you can only do is break the pact you have altogether and form it yourself.

Side note: Nothing to fix, its just there's 3 types of Vassal structures, 5 normal, 3 specialized and 3 fallen, the Bulwark is a specialized

[Kalemenos]

Hmm. I never knew that. But I am certain that in some games I have been able to change them from a specialized vassal to a regular vassal. So is there some difference between a "specialized bulwark" and a "normal bulwark"? Is there a wiki page or something explaining the 5/3/3 differences you point out? Thanks!

[❤ Sly Succubus ❤]

Originally posted by Kalemenos:

Hmm. I never knew that. But I am certain that in some games I have been able to change them from a specialized vassal to a regular vassal. So is there some difference between a "specialized bulwark" and a "normal bulwark"? Is there a wiki page or something explaining the 5/3/3 differences you point out? Thanks!

Sure thing, I'll link it for you below mate!

https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Subject_empire#Vassal

The difference over all is that specialized ones cant be intergrated into your own empire but provide far more bonuses the higher in level they go, while yes that 30% at the start hurts, at level 3 its 50%

But, at level 3, your civilian ships all become Battlewrights. https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Ship (Navigate to construction ships)

Along with that, all starbase researchs at level 1 are kept always pickable, at level 2 is the star fortress and so on, for the Bulwark itself, it gets a massive bonus to its entire military, effectively becoming a literal Bulwark to your empire, its fleets will be far stronger but it will have to rely on you, its Overlord, for resources which is why it wont get mad at the power issues as it has to accept without you, it will not have any power

[Kalemenos]

I never stop learning new things about this game, many thanks! And the "Battlewrights" is new to me, I never noticed that before.

But I still have this riddle: I have conquered empires, then watched them "begin specialization," and when they were done, I changed them from their specialization back to regular "vassal." But occasionally I can't, like this game. I just wonder whether there's something I'm not understanding regarding why that is so. Thanks again.

[❤ Sly Succubus ❤]

Originally posted by Kalemenos:

I never stop learning new things about this game, many thanks! And the "Battlewrights" is new to me, I never noticed that before.

But I still have this riddle: I have conquered empires, then watched them "begin specialization," and when they were done, I changed them from their specialization back to regular "vassal." But occasionally I can't, like this game. I just wonder whether there's something I'm not understanding regarding why that is so. Thanks again.

If I had to guess, it may be one of the four different normal vassal types, i've seen it myself but I didn't see them change-change like from vassal to bulwark, so I do wonder if its a situation where they go from say, Vassal type of Subsidiary to just, a normal Vassal, if so that technically would be a change in the specialization of it from one normal type to another, tho the phrasing could use some work. Like I've never seen the Fallen vassal types change myself, but I have played as one with the origin which makes me wonder if the types are like, the origin vassal, the vassal that comes from a war and the other which is related to War in Heaven event.

Edit: Correction, found the answer below!

[❤ Sly Succubus ❤]

Okay so I did do a search, Apparently Protectorate is a special vassal type that upon getting to the same tech or power of their overlord, will be switched over to one of the three Specializations, its a vassal type that effectively IS a normal vassal however automatically changes upon that empire being able to stand on its own two feet without its Overlords help, effectively its akin to being a empire-in-training to its own empire (IE Protectorate > Specialized Empire vassal)

So it IS possible however is only the Protectorate that allows it under unique conditions

[Kalemenos]

Awesome. Thanks for doing the research! I think the best solution, if I'm resolved to change them, is what you posted above and release them and start over. Thanks again.

[arronax06]

Specialized vassals can be changed back to non-specialized, as you can see in the screenshot: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3260015265
Usually, the only time you can't do that is when they are currently transforming into a specialized subject (or shortly after they finished transforming), and in addition, their tech level is too far below yours.

In that case, after they finish converting, you can change them back into a protectorate: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3260021328

Protectorate is the subject type for non-specialized vassals with a tech level too far below yours. They'll turn into a regular vassal or tributary once their tech improves. But vassals that are currently specializing can't turn into a protectorate until after they finish specializing :)

[Kalemenos]

Yes, arronax06, that is what I expect to find. But sometimes, as in the screenshot link I put above, the boxes "Vassal" and "Protectorate" are simply not there. They're not options. And that's where my confusion arises. Sometimes AI Empires have the "Vassal" option, but less frequently they do not, and the only option is to switch it between Bulwark-Scholarium-Prospectorium.

[arronax06]

That option doesn't appear when the empire is significantly weaker than you technologically and is considered by the game as currently converting. For example, in the the first screenshot that I posted, a few years earlier in that game, the options for vassal and tributary weren't appearing either, but when I checked back later, the options were there. Between those 2 times, I had restarted the game, but I can't guarantee that it was the solution.

I have a theory that if you got a vassal through the subjugation of their overlord, the game might take a while to recognize you as the new overlord and calculate the vassal types available for that subject, but it's only a conjecture :) .

[Kalemenos]

That's a good conjecture. I notice that saving then re-starting the game helps with some things. Whenever I open an L-gate and claim that territory, for example, I don't see the fog and boundary indicating my empire. But if I save, exit, and load the game, I see it. I'll give it a try next time it happens.

[flame from Halo]

This has been a bug for over 2 years now since the Overlord DLC released and it is quite annoying that it still exists.

It occurs when an overlord, of a specialized vassal, is vassalized by you. So long as that specialized-vassal civilization exists you cannot un-specialize them so long as they are your subject(even if they become your subject again through other means).

I recently fought an overlord I vassalized, released their(now my) bulwark subject, they became a VASSAL(non-specialized) of another empire, I vassalized that new overlord, only to see that the subject I had released and recaptured was still dead set on being my bulwark against my will with no way to correct it. [Before it is mentioned, proposing subjugation with the freed subject will result in a specialization-only selection]

[Kalemenos]

Yes! That's exactly what I'm talking about.

[Geoff]

Originally posted by Kalemenos:

I never stop learning new things about this game, many thanks! And the "Battlewrights" is new to me, I never noticed that before.

But I still have this riddle: I have conquered empires, then watched them "begin specialization," and when they were done, I changed them from their specialization back to regular "vassal." But occasionally I can't, like this game. I just wonder whether there's something I'm not understanding regarding why that is so. Thanks again.

I've been screwing around with the "Imperial Fiefdom" origin - I've got an overlord who controls all 30 regular empires in the galaxy. It's been teaching me a lot about vassalage, which is an aspect of the game I hadn't really needed to learn in any detail. I haven't had much patience with vassals, and I looked at them as sort of an overpowered mechanic for bonus-chasers. That definitely caused me to overlook some interesting possibilities involving theiruse.

FWIW, your specialized vassals can turn themselves from specialists into normal vassals. There's a drop down tab on the vassal screen that allows the vassalized player to do it. That might explain why it seemed to you that they were changing themselves back. In my current playthrough, I was prompted to pick a specialty on the first day of gameplay ("no specialty" was not an option). The Overlord decided to change me from a Prospectorium to a Scholarium, and since Earth is run by collaborationists, we've said "sure, why not."

Ultimately, I'm expecting to launch some revolution against the Overlord, but the specialized vassals do find themselves running with their shoelaces tied together. As a Prospectorium, the 30% tax on resource production had me working hard just to keep my head above water. And the influence cost of expansion has slowed my growth, if not curbed it. Now that I'm a scholarium, the penalties to naval capacity are keeping me from runaway power bloat.

The different vassals also experience regular bonus events and get access to special leadership traits, which I had been unaware of before.

[❤ Sly Succubus ❤]

Originally posted by Geoff:

Originally posted by Kalemenos:

I never stop learning new things about this game, many thanks! And the "Battlewrights" is new to me, I never noticed that before.

But I still have this riddle: I have conquered empires, then watched them "begin specialization," and when they were done, I changed them from their specialization back to regular "vassal." But occasionally I can't, like this game. I just wonder whether there's something I'm not understanding regarding why that is so. Thanks again.

I've been screwing around with the "Imperial Fiefdom" origin - I've got an overlord who controls all 30 regular empires in the galaxy. It's been teaching me a lot about vassalage, which is an aspect of the game I hadn't really needed to learn in any detail. I haven't had much patience with vassals, and I looked at them as sort of an overpowered mechanic for bonus-chasers. That definitely caused me to overlook some interesting possibilities involving theiruse.

FWIW, your specialized vassals can turn themselves from specialists into normal vassals. There's a drop down tab on the vassal screen that allows the vassalized player to do it. That might explain why it seemed to you that they were changing themselves back. In my current playthrough, I was prompted to pick a specialty on the first day of gameplay ("no specialty" was not an option). The Overlord decided to change me from a Prospectorium to a Scholarium, and since Earth is run by collaborationists, we've said "sure, why not."

Ultimately, I'm expecting to launch some revolution against the Overlord, but the specialized vassals do find themselves running with their shoelaces tied together. As a Prospectorium, the 30% tax on resource production had me working hard just to keep my head above water. And the influence cost of expansion has slowed my growth, if not curbed it. Now that I'm a scholarium, the penalties to naval capacity are keeping me from runaway power bloat.

The different vassals also experience regular bonus events and get access to special leadership traits, which I had been unaware of before.

I still love the Bulwark trait that turns your construction ships into battleform construction ships, it effectively gives them a fighting chance against smaller enemy groups, its now a powerful buff yes but it ups their escape chance along with boosts to their over all armor, hull and shield and adds I think two counterpoint guns to the ship that deflects missiles and fighters