Free weekend? Awesome. Paradox? Hell, no.

[gonavy-beatarmy]

I saw on my feed this was a free Stellaris weekend. Oh, that’s neat.

Then I noticed it’s a Paradox game. Oh, hell no.

[ChaffyExpert]

Why? paradox games are great.

[gonavy-beatarmy]

Sure, if you like opening your wallet for DLC every other week and having stuff break constantly because of new “features”.

[pete3great]

Here come the usual suspects to attack you for expressing your opinion (and being right).

[gonavy-beatarmy]

Originally posted by pete3great:

Here come the usual suspects to attack you for expressing your opinion (and being right).

Yup, as always.

[Hellzcatz]

Originally posted by Emperor Palpatinate:

Why? paradox games are great.

Stellaris used to be good, but the designers decided people should only play on THEIR way. I don´t see other paradox games being chaged so much with disregard for the player base than what we see in this game.

[EleventhStar]

Originally posted by gonavy-beatarmy:

Sure, if you like opening your wallet for DLC every other week and having stuff break constantly because of new “features”.

you don't actually have to pull your wallet during a free weekend, and chances are nothing will break during the weekend.

you'll just have to resist buying the game if you accidently enjoy it.

[Immortalis]

Originally posted by gonavy-beatarmy:

Sure, if you like opening your wallet for DLC every other week and having stuff break constantly because of new “features”.

There are only three models to sustain development arcs that go on for a decade:

1) subscription model, as most MMOs do, with monthly recurring fee;
2) huge prices out the front door, something that nobody does because we "need" games to remain on the same price tag they had 20 years ago;
3) sell the content that is being developed throughout the years as DLC.

If you have a brilliant idea to support a decade of development outside of these three models, feel free to share it with us.

That being said, it's a great game, you don't need to spend hundreds of dollars on it. If you keep an eye out you can get the game and every single DLC within the 40$ mark; of course you won't be getting everything all at once, surely that is completely unacceptable, right?

[EleventhStar]

Originally posted by Immortalis:

If you have a brilliant idea to support a decade of development outside of these three models, feel free to share it with us.

if your goal is merely sustaining the project instead of maximizing profit there are many options.

new people become old enough to be the target audience all the time. make the game good enough that these new people will buy it.

the other big one is handing the project off to a small efficient flexible team. the amount of inefficiently and opportunity cost is much much higher in a company the size of pdx.
added bonus of being a small team is that you can also do it on a hobby/volunteer/merch/donation model.

[gonavy-beatarmy]

Originally posted by Immortalis:

Originally posted by gonavy-beatarmy:

Sure, if you like opening your wallet for DLC every other week and having stuff break constantly because of new “features”.

There are only three models to sustain development arcs that go on for a decade:

1) subscription model, as most MMOs do, with monthly recurring fee;
2) huge prices out the front door, something that nobody does because we "need" games to remain on the same price tag they had 20 years ago;
3) sell the content that is being developed throughout the years as DLC.

If you have a brilliant idea to support a decade of development outside of these three models, feel free to share it with us.

That being said, it's a great game, you don't need to spend hundreds of dollars on it. If you keep an eye out you can get the game and every single DLC within the 40$ mark; of course you won't be getting everything all at once, surely that is completely unacceptable, right?

Funny, used to be games could last for years out the door. System Shock had no DLC, Deus Ex didn’t. Used to be you had to release another game to soak players out for more instead of selling what would once have been considered “base features”. Paradox is known for putting out DLC and then adjusting base code so previous saves aren’t compatible.

Maybe you’re not old enough to remember games were released finished, I certainly am.

I also find it funny that you’re okay with $40 of DLC to “fund project development” but in the same breath tell me you can’t put things out at exorbitant prices. It’s almost $100 for everything (base and DLC), more like $150 at full price. So which is it?

[pete3great]

Originally posted by gonavy-beatarmy:

Maybe you’re not old enough to remember games were released finished, I certainly am.

It's important to remember that a lot of the folks defending Paradox's DLC policy don't have to pay for any of it themselves.

[Viscount Danku]

I dunno, I use nihilistic aquisition on them, makes life easier.

[Donauwelle]

Originally posted by pete3great:

Originally posted by gonavy-beatarmy:

Maybe you’re not old enough to remember games were released finished, I certainly am.

It's important to remember that a lot of the folks defending Paradox's DLC policy don't have to pay for any of it themselves.

I guess the vast majority are just regular Persons with regular Jobs and regular Income who dont mind spending 10-15 Bucks every here and there for yet another 25-50 Hrs of enjoyment.
Just like others spend 1000 Bucks for 2 Weeks of skiing, or a week on a Beach.....

Sure that sucks for all those who still go to school but... well thats life?
You get older, you get a job, you can pay for your Hobby...

[ChaffyExpert]

Originally posted by pete3great:

Here come the usual suspects to attack you for expressing your opinion (and being right).

Ya how dare anybody but you have an opinion.

[ChaffyExpert]

Originally posted by gonavy-beatarmy:

Sure, if you like opening your wallet for DLC every other week and having stuff break constantly because of new “features”.

Or don't buy it.

[Immortalis]

Originally posted by EleventhStar:

if your goal is merely sustaining the project instead of maximizing profit there are many options.

new people become old enough to be the target audience all the time. make the game good enough that these new people will buy it.

the other big one is handing the project off to a small efficient flexible team. the amount of inefficiently and opportunity cost is much much higher in a company the size of pdx.
added bonus of being a small team is that you can also do it on a hobby/volunteer/merch/donation model.

Paradox's games have always been rather small niches, if they had a way of getting more people in, they would have done that long ago. Instead, every single time they try something new and different (recently Imperator and Victoria 3, but the same thing happened with HOI4), those that are already playing their game are disgruntled and driven away and new people come in to try it, don't like the genre and run away.

A company cannot sustain a "hobby/volunteer/merch/donation model". How would it work? Are you going to have contracts stating that people are getting payed for their job only if we reach a certain donation goal? Likewise, cutting cost by reducing the size of the team is not really viable: Paradox has studios in countries with very strong labour laws, meaning they cannot just fire people for the sake of it; and since they'd need to pay them all the same, doesn't really make a lot of sense to take them off from doing actual work.

Originally posted by gonavy-beatarmy:

Funny, used to be games could last for years out the door. System Shock had no DLC, Deus Ex didn’t. Used to be you had to release another game to soak players out for more instead of selling what would once have been considered “base features”. Paradox is known for putting out DLC and then adjusting base code so previous saves aren’t compatible.

Maybe you’re not old enough to remember games were released finished, I certainly am.

I also find it funny that you’re okay with $40 of DLC to “fund project development” but in the same breath tell me you can’t put things out at exorbitant prices. It’s almost $100 for everything (base and DLC), more like $150 at full price. So which is it?

Yeah... System Shock actually ended up losing money for Looking Glass so that would probably not be the best example of "other ways for game to sustain themselves throughout the years"; nor would Deus Ex be a good example.

Yes, game were released in a finished status. *But* game companies almost never went back to update them, or released DLC at all; back in the days they released a game, shut off everything related to it except for marketing and move on to the next project.

Paradox releases a game and then continues to work on it, refining, adding new mechanics, changing how things are done etc etc for years upon years; there's really no comparing the two different models here. And no, previous saves not being compatible across (major) versions is not a result of Paradox deliberately being jerks and tweaking the codes but rather of massive changes that cannot be transported from older saves (the population rework, for example, or more recently how leaders are handled); most of the time savegames are in fact compatible through the minor updates they release (for free) in between DLC.

Finally, as to the money argument, it's simply a relative question. There are people that are not only fine but rather perfectly happy spending 10$ a day at Starbucks to get a colorful cup of coffee; there are people who spend hundreds of dollars every weekend clubbing; people spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars to go to concerts, sport events etc etc. I would be fine with spending 200$ for a game I really like if those 200$ are being spread, as they are being spread, across a decade of development: that's what, 20$ a year, if you keep on top of things? Geeez.... how incredibly greedy of them.

If you think the price is too steep for you, that's cool, I'm not here to tell you how to spend your money. But I do tell you that out of the models that Paradox might use to sustain development for a decade after a game has been released, the one they are currently using is the best for us players.

Originally posted by pete3great:

It's important to remember that a lot of the folks defending Paradox's DLC policy don't have to pay for any of it themselves.

And it's equally important to remember that, unlike a certain troll lurking beneath this bridge, those of us that *do* in fact pay for the game have on average enough intelligence to know how to save a bit of money here in there: look for steam keys, only buy things during a sale, have a bit of patience....