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shroud always struck me as more of a stargate ancients/ori kind of higher dimension. they even got the whole non-religious vs religious spiritualism theme going there. heck they even have a forced conversion beam there i think?
in 40k robots/tech/AI can 100% interact with the warp in many many ways, its very fundamental to the setting there. necron/eldar/old one/material tech can literally destroy the warp there, even the emp gave it a solid try.
No, we are not. You are making and arbitrary decision about what souls are in the game and the game on no fundamental level sets it in stone. You are deciding what parts of what is presented and valid.
You are the one that seems confused about what you are talking about. Caps lock spam showing your poor credibility.
Rampaging monsters with souls, very good and well reasoned I'm sure. Supported by 2 lines both ending in question marks.
Once again you assume that having a soul is tied to having a connection to the Shroud. Well organic lifeforms can't connect to the cloud and get quick software updates, using the same logic to conclude that organic life has no soul. Because I'm making an the same kind of arbitrary absurd decision that those things are connected.
Psionics are real, the Shroud is real. Neither of those things have anything to do with a soul.
They don't defy physics. They sometimes step into our reality and wreck things. But sometimes when they step into our reality they get the living crap kicked out of them because they aren't gods, they are just incredibly powerful. Your logic is misapplied, they likely lack a full understanding of how our plane works just like we don't understand theirs. The planes have different physics rules.
Your criteria are so low for what classifies as a god you may as well worship the Fallen races. Their tech defies the laws of physics at the start of the game. Your understanding of this complex topic is like one of someone who thinks everything that is currently unexplained is magic.
If the Shroud invades our plane a missile to the face seems to work. Physics applies to them too.
That is exactly how it works. Your arguments are made off 1 single assumption you can't support with anything aside from claims without evidence. I really wouldn't talk about stupid arguments after this and your ignorant OP.
Connection to the Shroud does not equal a soul. Connection to the Shroud equals psionic potential and that's it.
LOL at the monsters in the Shroud, they'd better keep a low profile less the Fallen races wake up and show they how fragile/weak they really are and why they don't rule this plane right now. Gods my ass. Slink off back to the Shroud now. Tell yourself you are the special one for being connected to that giant mess.
Your complete inability to see it from another perspective is sad. Their realm would be the physical realm to them because they are designed to exist in it. The point of me saying
"I wonder if beings in The Shroud say they must have a soul because they are connected to our plane of existence."
Is because our realm is hard for them to move around in and make contact with from their perspective. I bet they see the Fallen Empires as the gods of our realm and they think they are the ones for whom physics don't apply.
The Shroud is a realm of pure psionic energy from where psionic species and individuals draw their power, and a place where those who awakened their psionic potential could see in their dreams. The realm is inhabited by powerful beings of pure psionic energy that can be communed with through great effort.
__
Going to burst your bubble lad, after doing some digging and looking around...
No, the Shroud is just a purple reskin of Warhammer 40K's Warp space...which is entirely occupied by only demons, in Stellaris its literally ALSO an alternate dimension...Plus...
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_End_of_The_Cycle
The Zroni created the being within the Shroud by fusing their souls together to make an artificial god called The End...
So to be correct in reality this thing is literally an artificial synth super-being made up of trillions of consumed "souls" and is literally on par with the story of the Eldar and the 4th God of Chaos from 40k then anything else..
dig some harder, the comparison completely breaks down if you look further than a 2 sentence summary of the warp.
sounds more like the shamans if you want a 40k comparision.
also uhm... if you read the lore blurp on your own link... that's pretty much the ori plotline word for word. eldar never had a riligious civl war, and only solitaires make a deal with slaanesh.
You mean the Eldar had a huge orgy that birthed slannesh and made the Eye of terror?
2nd...Yes, the Eldar did, the Dark Eldar Civil War: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dark_Eldar_Civil_War#:~:text=The%20Dark%20Eldar%20Civil%20War%20is%20an%20ongoing,arose%20following%20the%20formation%20of%20the%20Great%20Rift. Which was literally part of a larger conflict IRONICALLY CALLED: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Psychic_Awakening
Their nothing like Shamans, the fact they had a war at all means their as far from Shamans or even Druids as it comes as neither one of those get involved with wars.
In it details an experiment by a precursor machine empire to contact the shroud.
They succeeded, but deemed the risks of proceeding too great to continue and shut it down.
If you continue, you enter the Shroud and contact "The Animator of Clay", a deity within the Shroud.
I won't go into further details, but the gist is that machine empires can enter/contact the Shroud.
So either machines do have souls and the Shroud deities are just racist (machinist?), or the Shroud (and spiritualism as a whole) has nothing to do with whether you have a soul or not...and the Shroud deities are just racist.
Either way, the Shroud deities are just racist.
Then what is the shroud connection that biological pops have? Y'know, the magical spiritual connection to a realm of pure spiritual power that biologic pops are inherently linked to?
"You are the one that seems confused about what you are talking about. Caps lock spam showing your poor credibility."
Did you just unironically say "caps lock, I win"?
Rampaging monsters with souls, very good and well reasoned I'm sure. Supported by 2 lines both ending in question marks."
Ok, and you have no counter arguments. My assertion is that biological pops, be it cloned or born have souls. You bring up xenos, but that doesn't prove anything. What about being a rabid beast disproves having a soul? You yourself are making baseless assertions.
"Once again you assume that having a soul is tied to having a connection to the Shroud. Well organic lifeforms can't connect to the cloud and get quick software updates, using the same logic to conclude that organic life has no soul. Because I'm making an the same kind of arbitrary absurd decision that those things are connected."
The shroud connection is LITERALLY an immortal spiritual connection to a realm of spiritual power, which is preserved after death and which enters said realm of spiritual power when you die, its like an exact 1 to 1 of a soul with a different name. How is it THIS HARD to wrap that around your head?
"Psionics are real, the Shroud is real. Neither of those things have anything to do with a soul."
Its literally a magical source of power linked to a realm of spiritual power. Like jesus christ, how many times do I have to say this?
"They don't defy physics. They sometimes step into our reality and wreck things. But sometimes when they step into our reality they get the living crap kicked out of them because they aren't gods, they are just incredibly powerful. Your logic is misapplied, they likely lack a full understanding of how our plane works just like we don't understand theirs. The planes have different physics rules."
Oh wow, they don't defy the laws of physics, they actually just use psionic energy to create physical forms and have physical influence and cast magic projectiles, and also the psionic energy can do 1 billion different things depending on what you want it to do, but I'm sure it fits perfectly within the laws of physics
"Your criteria are so low for what classifies as a god you may as well worship the Fallen races. Their tech defies the laws of physics at the start of the game. Your understanding of this complex topic is like one of someone who thinks everything that is currently unexplained is magic."
Let me explain this again:
They are entities made out of physics defying spiritual power, the same sort of spiritual power which souls are made out of, that live in a realm of spiritual power, that can use spiritual power to have huge effects on our reality.
"If the Shroud invades our plane a missile to the face seems to work. Physics applies to them too."
A wooden cube that doesn't abide by gravity defies the laws of physics, but if you shoot it it still gets damaged. Just because something defies the laws of physics doesn't mean it is completely immune to anything that does.
"That is exactly how it works. Your arguments are made off 1 single assumption you can't support with anything aside from claims without evidence. I really wouldn't talk about stupid arguments after this and your ignorant OP. "
The spiritual realm would be A material world for them, but it would not be THE material world. WE are the material world because we are made of material, of matter. THEY are made of psionic energy. When they use psionic energy to create matter and create a physical form, or when they are bound to a physical form, they do have a physical form. It would not give them psionic form, or a soul, because they ARE the psionic form, they ARE the soul.
"Connection to the Shroud does not equal a soul. Connection to the Shroud equals psionic potential and that's it."
read everything above
"LOL at the monsters in the Shroud, they'd better keep a low profile less the Fallen races wake up and show they how fragile/weak they really are and why they don't rule this plane right now. Gods my ass. Slink off back to the Shroud now. Tell yourself you are the special one for being connected to that giant mess."
1. There is an event where you can accidentally awaken an eldritch terror from screwing around too much. If you ask the curator order about it, they say that it is only a TINY FRAGMENT of the whole being, which, if allowed to entirely enter, COULD DESTROY THE UNIVERSE! SOME UNNAMED ELDRITCH HORROR, ABLE TO DESTROY THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE! LIKE JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY REASON WE ARE NOT ALL DEAD IS BECAUSE THE SHROUD BEINGS DON'T ENTER REALITY!
2. I never said it made me special you ♥♥♥♥, I said it meant that biological pops have souls and synthetics do not. Technically, that means special by definition, but I'm certainly not a narcissist.
"Your complete inability to see it from another perspective is sad. Their realm would be the physical realm to them because they are designed to exist in it. The point of me saying
"I wonder if beings in The Shroud say they must have a soul because they are connected to our plane of existence."
Is because our realm is hard for them to move around in and make contact with from their perspective. I bet they see the Fallen Empires as the gods of our realm and they think they are the ones for whom physics don't apply. "
Read above
yes they did that. the zroni seem to have done it voluntarity and without all that depravity? if "they became one being in a higher dimension" is all you need for equivalency there are hundreds of examples.
ironically the psyhic awakening takes place more than ten thousands years after the birth of slaanesh, really looking forward to seeing you explain the cause/effect here.
honestly there are like 6 alternate dimensions in stellaris, and pretty much all of them want to break into ours to eat/subdue us. and even our dimension builds science nexii that eat engergy from the other dimensions. it's all just generic stuff, the shroud just got the word "pshychic" tagged onto it and suddenly it's not just inspired by 40k, but a copy paste? at least tell me you have actually watched stargate.
are you talking about the extradimentional invaders crisis? or the dimenstional horror? or the worm? im confused.
Really religion is just there to improve social gatherings, I think so long as you stick to that the religion will stay in its more pure format. The educational system is crud but I think it does manage to generally" outdo religions teaching ability once a country gets developed enough.
Religions are meant to entertain the masses from a corporate standpoint, the moment people take a poorly thought out religion to purpose is the moment it becomes a cult. Their poorly thought out as their stories seem smart but aren't as smart as people think it is. The universe is infinite such that it needs infinite improvement. We all need to add OUR own part of logic to make it more correct.
Machines being without souls? The great lie is that humans have souls. And you think why? If a robot simulates a human very good you can almost not tell the difference. You start to question what actually makes you sapient. You will conclude its your logical process of being or "is-ing". A robot can achieve high level of "is-ing" or being. And thus they must have souls if you have a soul.
A word is a box, like a number, a glyph, a symbol. Nothing more than a definition box. A digit does not represent a small continuous number, but rather an increase "boxing" of accuracy.
The word of "god", that is like the word "soul' is just another definition box. Partially accurate but not really. And more so a pompous declaration.
If you say they don't have a soul you don't as your at same intelligence level, if you say they do you do have a soul. Basically saying they have no souls says humans too can be abused as their just machines like the robots. Spiritualist slave guild? Spiritualist slave guild !
I think your asking the wrong question. The question you should be asking is whether humans categorise as philosophical zombies. That the atoms we are made of, completely and unoriginal able to predict to the point of frustrated annoyance of nothing ever changing with the organics.
Both machines and organics are made of atoms, the only difference is macro component versus micro component. Organics use cells as micro component. While robots currently use very small chipsets that continue to get closer to be as small as our own components.
The moment the machine is more capable than an organic is the moment it has more soul than an organic. Spiritualists spit on them because they don't incorporate all features of the organic.
To be honest with you, if I played a machine empire that was also individualistic I tell you it would be overpowered. That is the truth or might makes right that would say its more correct.
Don't get me wrong though, I love how spiritualists were made playable for unity. It made playing them more enjoyable.