Casus Belli and the 'I still don't get it'

[Esperologist]

Foreword :
I don't play very often... that is why I am asking now instead of back when casper's belly became a thing.
I understand the whole 'need a reason to go to war' thing. I also understand the whole 'try and start a war then pick your excuse' thing.
Now, on to the question...
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How is what excuse for war that is available decided?
Calims - Yup, I get that. Pretty straight forward... I first say I want a system, then the AI settles it and gets all upset and claims some of my systems then declares war on me and I beat them sensless. Then, I claim more of their territory and take that... then claim more and take that.
- That was two playthroughs ago.
My current playthrough, I eventually expand my borders to envelope a wormhole that connects to an AI's territory across the map and suddenly it pops up 'they have an excuse to attack you, because ideology stuff!'
So, I check ethics and we are both heavy to materialistic and weak in something else. Okay, they don't like that we are almost the same...
Then, I check the direct neighbour that I've had for a while... hmm... again, not the exact same ethics, but they are fine with me as a neighbour.
Then I look at my options for going to war with... wait, I'm not allowed to declare war on them because I have no excuse... yet they have an excuse?
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* drops mouse *
I don't get it... before the AI would pick on me because I don't usually build a big force... but now, I can't even declare war despite having 'do it for any reason' as my war policy.
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I guess it doesn't really matter that the only way I know to get an excuse for war is to claim systems... at least I can go to war that way. But, it would be interesting to be able to use other excuses instead of only ever using the same excuse every time... and it would be useful to know WHY the AI has that excuse against me but I don't against them.

[DirishDevil]

all i can say is.. DRIVEN ASSIMILATOR

[Meewec]

there's a war policy to allow ideological wars. if you want an excuse through the wormhole it counts as next to you, so just put some claims on things

also there are total wars which any empire with a colossus or assimilators, exterminators, devourerers, and purifiers have access to. or you have the option of using that type of war against any of those mentioned.

[Pacalospizza]

Ideology Casus Belli is available when you set your war philosophy to "liberation wars" usually used by pacifist empires (fanatic pacifist only could use defensive wars, no casus belli at all, but you can set it to liberation without pacifism, it could be fun), so your wormhole neighbor my be pacifist fanatic materialist empire with liberation war war philosophy, the other may have unrestricted war philosophy without claims on you, that is why they cannot attack you. If you want to attack, claim on them, or set your philosophy to liberation and send them some 1000 kiloton democracies :D

[HugsAndSnuggles]

Messaggio originale di Esperologist:

Then I look at my options for going to war with... wait, I'm not allowed to declare war on them because I have no excuse... yet they have an excuse?

Well, considering that you understand this:

Messaggio originale di Esperologist:

I understand the whole 'need a reason to go to war' thing. I also understand the whole 'try and start a war then pick your excuse' thing.

all that's left is to understand that your empire and their empire are two different entities, each having their own fifferent reasons for war (if any)

[Elitewrecker PT]

In this particular case they don't have unrestricted wars, which gives them the ideology war instead.

[Xautos]

Came out of a Casus Belli in a war with some lizard like creatures, i turned them into a vassal and then listened to their unnatural howling (sweet music to my ears! xD) and then i released them a few months later as the whole liberty of being a member of the united human colonies is completely at odds with forcing another race into servitude. it was fun while it lasted, i got my five minutes of enjoyment out of the howling (diplomatic insults).

just be careful with the use of those types of Casus Belli though, because most of the galaxy will see you as an instant threat and it will make any diplomany down right impossible for a few years until the "threat" points have decreased or the tag is removed altogether.

[Esperologist]

I have no idea what 'driven assimilator' is... is that a trait I need to build into the race or a technology?
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Okay, so being set to 'Unrestricted Wars' means I can't get the Ideology Casus Belli?
I'm guessing those requirements for total war are a late game (tech level) thing that I've just never reached.
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Okay, the neigbour in question is Fanatic Materialist, Pacifist. So, they are set to Liberation Wars since they have it on me. So, if I were to switch to Liberation then I would likely have one on them as well?
My options are Unresitricted, Liberation and Defensive.
They were +14 to me... and changing my bombard got them to +24... so maybe they won't attack.
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I'm not sure why... but loading up the game today, I can now actually select the option to declare war on them. Must have been a bug that kicked into effect because of how long I was playing that session.
Okay... I see, if I actually click the 'declare war' option it lists several excuses I can have and I can find rough guidance on how to gaim them.
Conquer - the easiest since it just requires making claims on their territory.
Humiliate - oh, if I rival someone... hmm... I don't usually do that as it usually provokes an attack, but for some reason I almost have the most powerful forces on this run.
Vassalize and Tributary - both seem to become active through diplomacy... Subjugation... which seems to be given by either demanding they become my vassal or tributary. Not sure if I must match the demand to the desired war clause... but whatever.
If there are any other options... I don't have access to them.
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Yeah, I understand that my empire is different from theirs... my issue was that I couldn't find how to get a Casus Belli so that I could declare war.
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Apparently the issue was that I had a bug that prevented me from being able to try going to war and thus prevented me from seeing information about Casus Belli options and how to get them. If there are any other than the 4 I have access to and the Liberation one... I don't know how to gain access to seeing them. But, at least I know that my problem was outright a bug and not my own mistake.

[Olivinism]

Messaggio originale di Esperologist:

I have no idea what 'driven assimilator' is... is that a trait I need to build into the race or a technology?

It's a Machine Empire Civic. Basically, DAs (Driven Assimulators) have the best of almost every world, one of their many superiorities is immediate Total War availability with their war goal of Sublimation.

[Elitewrecker PT]

Total wars are exclusive to specific civics, if you don't have those civics (or attacking am empire that has them) you need to get a colossus (which requires apocalypse expansion).

Ideology wars are restricted to the liberation wars policy (and pacifists can't get "unrestricted" wars).

Subjugation requires a tradition to unlock vassalization.

[Shahadem]

Except that Casus Belli doesn't make sense as implemented. Casus Belli is how you diplomatically justify going to war. But if you don't care what other species think about you then your reason for going to war don't matter. In fact you shouldn't need a reason at all because you don't give a ♥♥♥♥ what other people think about your empire.

The stupidity of the Casus Belli system is just further proof that absolutely zero thought was put into CherryH.

[Meewec]

Messaggio originale di Shahadem:

Except that Casus Belli doesn't make sense as implemented. Casus Belli is how you diplomatically justify going to war. But if you don't care what other species think about you then your reason for going to war don't matter. In fact you shouldn't need a reason at all because you don't give a ♥♥♥♥ what other people think about your empire.

The stupidity of the Casus Belli system is just further proof that absolutely zero thought was put into CherryH.

i'm sorry that a simple game concept that provides a balancing act within the game alongside making certain empire types actually possible to play is too much for you to grasp.

maybe you should stick to games that have no diplomacy and you're at war with everyone on the map all the time

[Elitewrecker PT]

Messaggio originale di Shahadem:

Except that Casus Belli doesn't make sense as implemented. Casus Belli is how you diplomatically justify going to war. But if you don't care what other species think about you then your reason for going to war don't matter. In fact you shouldn't need a reason at all because you don't give a ♥♥♥♥ what other people think about your empire.

The stupidity of the Casus Belli system is just further proof that absolutely zero thought was put into CherryH.

Those are called the total war civics. Where your only reason to go to war is because you want to (still have 10 year truces though).

[Shahadem]

Messaggio originale di Meewec:

Messaggio originale di Shahadem:

Except that Casus Belli doesn't make sense as implemented. Casus Belli is how you diplomatically justify going to war. But if you don't care what other species think about you then your reason for going to war don't matter. In fact you shouldn't need a reason at all because you don't give a ♥♥♥♥ what other people think about your empire.

The stupidity of the Casus Belli system is just further proof that absolutely zero thought was put into CherryH.

i'm sorry that a simple game concept that provides a balancing act within the game alongside making certain empire types actually possible to play is too much for you to grasp.

maybe you should stick to games that have no diplomacy and you're at war with everyone on the map all the time

Balance my ass. The Casus Belli system wasn't about balance and doesn't provide balance. If anything it prevents balance because it prevents species from engaging in defensive, strategic and/or preemptive wars, etc. It makes it impossible to realize in the middle of the war that your goals needs to change to match the unfolding reality. It is about the devs making Stellaris more like their other games. The entire problem with diplomacy, that still exists, is that it is impossible to engage in diplomacy. Stellaris diplomacy is light years behind even games like Civilization 5 with simple but effective diplomatic interaction options.

I used to try engaging in diplomacy in Stellaris but when I came to understand how braindead the AI was and that engaging in fake Stellaris diplomacy was only harming me (such as being forced to hand over half my empire during a war I was winning but my ally was losing) then I just gaveup on it and switched to always being fanatic purifier. I didn't choose to start as fanatic purifier, the choice was forced on me.

[Meewec]

Messaggio originale di Shahadem:

Balance my ass. The Casus Belli system wasn't about balance and doesn't provide balance. If anything it prevents balance because it prevents species from engaging in defensive, strategic and/or preemptive wars, etc. It makes it impossible to realize in the middle of the war that your goals needs to change to match the unfolding reality. It is about the devs making Stellaris more like their other games. The entire problem with diplomacy, that still exists, is that it is impossible to engage in diplomacy. Stellaris diplomacy is light years behind even games like Civilization 5 with simple but effective diplomatic interaction options.

I used to try engaging in diplomacy in Stellaris but when I came to understand how braindead the AI was and that engaging in fake Stellaris diplomacy was only harming me (such as being forced to hand over half my empire during a war I was winning but my ally was losing) then I just gaveup on it and switched to always being fanatic purifier. I didn't choose to start as fanatic purifier, the choice was forced on me.

this rant makes it sound like you're playing a completely different game

[Edmund Greyfox]

"Except that Casus Belli doesn't make sense as implemented. Casus Belli is how you diplomatically justify going to war. But if you don't care what other species think about you then your reason for going to war don't matter. In fact you shouldn't need a reason at all because you don't give a ♥♥♥♥ what other people think about your empire."

A Casus Belli doesn't necessarily mean you care about what other species thinks. It can also mean that you need an excuse you can use with your own people to justify the war. Just as an example, the night before Germany invaded Poland Hitler sent teams of German soldiers disguised as Polish soldiers to attack a few German border positions, and had them do a radio broadcast that made it look like Poland had attacked first and the German army was just reacting to Polish aggression. He didn't expect the English or French to buy that story-it was aimed at convincing the German people that invading Poland was justified.