What is a spiritualist?

[Paddy]

Hey guys so i notice in this game Paradox leave out religion entirely (perhaps due to laziness) and instead we have two options, spiritualist and materialist. I'm wondering what is the point of spiritualism in this game, what does it do? who is it for? It's such a vague and underdeveloped mechanic that it seems the developers made this game fun for only one role. A role that represents a minority in the world and this is materialism. It makes no sense.

The religion mechanic in all other Paradox games adds so much flavour and drama to the game, why not include it here?

[Kapika96]

Spiritualist represents religion, and is liked to psychic ability.

As for leaving religion out of the game, that's not because of laziness more that it wouldn't really be possible in a game like this. Just think about it, there would be no shared religions between alien races that had never even met each other, and there are what almost 10 major religions on Earth alone? Imagine having that for every single race/planet in the game. It would be far too many religions. Not to mention that with the races being randomly created each time you'd really have to do the same for the religions, it would be silly to have a pre-set group of them.

Besides, the majority of nation states on earth are secular anyway (with the exceptions being the middle east and the US). So it seems to be fair to assume the majority of spacefaring races would be secular too, even if some of their people were still religious it likely wouldn't play a role in politics and therefore isn't worth implementing.

The exception to that would be spiritualist empires, where due to the aforementioned difficulty in representing a myriad of different religions, it's basically just abstracted to a "religious" empire. The religion they actually follow does matter too much in the grand scheme of things anyway. You can effectively role play it any way that you yourself want to still.

[Paddy]

Originally posted by Kapika96:

Spiritualist represents religion, and is liked to psychic ability.

As for leaving religion out of the game, that's not because of laziness more that it wouldn't really be possible in a game like this. Just think about it, there would be no shared religions between alien races that had never even met each other, and there are what almost 10 major religions on Earth alone? Imagine having that for every single race/planet in the game. It would be far too many religions. Not to mention that with the races being randomly created each time you'd really have to do the same for the religions, it would be silly to have a pre-set group of them.

Besides, the majority of nation states on earth are secular anyway (with the exceptions being the middle east and the US). So it seems to be fair to assume the majority of spacefaring races would be secular too, even if some of their people were still religious it likely wouldn't play a role in politics and therefore isn't worth implementing.

The exception to that would be spiritualist empires, where due to the aforementioned difficulty in representing a myriad of different religions, it's basically just abstracted to a "religious" empire. The religion they actually follow does matter too much in the grand scheme of things anyway. You can effectively role play it any way that you yourself want to still.

Religion could be broken quite easily into monotheism, polytheism and pantheism and depending on these factors if other civilisations share them with you would reflect your relationships with them. Spiritualism does NOT represent religion in the slightest especially not monotheistic religions such as Christianity, Islam or Judaism. Spiritualism in this game is descried as people who believe reality is merely a dream and that we are pointless.

This go against Christianity for example that says we are created equally with intrinsic value and dignity. It makes no sense. Spiritualism is more like Buddhism but again how many percent of people would relate to that? On the other side you have materialism, again how few in the world relate to that? What about the majority?

[Astasia]

Fundamentally spiritualism in Stellaris is the belief in a soul, belief that soul is linked to psionics, and the belief that becoming a synth is death of the soul. Beyond that it's whatever you want it to be for your empire, it's intentionally vague because in a sci-fi setting spanning a galaxy petty ideas like "religion" are often too small or antiquated for the types of empires that exist. Spiritualism in Stellaris can be so much more, or so much less, than religion, but if religion is what you want it can also be that.

[Paddy]

Originally posted by Astasia:

Fundamentally spiritualism in Stellaris is the belief in a soul, belief that soul is linked to psionics, and the belief that becoming a synth is death of the soul. Beyond that it's whatever you want it to be for your empire, it's intentionally vague because in a sci-fi setting spanning a galaxy petty ideas like "religion" are often too small or antiquated for the types of empires that exist. Spiritualism in Stellaris can be so much more, or so much less, than religion, but if religion is what you want it can also be that.

Yea i get it now, cheers, i wish this was expanded on further however. It could make for such an interesting experience if different religions could interact with each other.

I choose spiritual, egalitarian and Xenophile. Beacon of liberty and idealistic foundation. All values spawned from a modern Christian society. Anyway i would have just like it to have more effect than currently

[Timmetry]

You could think about it this way... in Stellaris... spiritualism is ultimately based on something very real that physically manifests in the real universe and can even give you superpowers. Rather than having tons of separate religions that don't really do much except divide people via dogma of their own creation, Stellaris approaches religion as a search for Ultimate Truth... a search which can actually be completed... because that Ultimate Truth is actually out there and anyone with enough faith and perseverance can eventually grasp hold of it... truly ascending to a higher state of being that reaches beyond this universe entirely.

[Nokta]

My religion is total xeno annihilation. Purge the xenos. Or assimilate them. Much better. Religion is futile.

[MP]

Spiritualism deals with the "id", soul, spiritual/moral/intellectual desires, such as meditation and platonic love.
Materialism deals with "ego", body, worldly/carnal desires, such as food and sex.

Being spiritualist does not necessarily mean believing in some god or paranormal stuff.
Neither does being materialist necessarily mean not believing in soul; after all materialists want to upload their consciousness onto a Raspberry Pi or something.

[Paddy]

Ok I get it now. I just heard so much bad reviews of the spiritualist role and just wanted it a bit more fleshed out however once it is combined with other traits then it is much better

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Paddy (Irish):

Hey guys so i notice in this game Paradox leave out religion entirely (perhaps due to laziness) and instead we have two options, spiritualist and materialist. I'm wondering what is the point of spiritualism in this game, what does it do? who is it for? It's such a vague and underdeveloped mechanic that it seems the developers made this game fun for only one role. A role that represents a minority in the world and this is materialism. It makes no sense.

The religion mechanic in all other Paradox games adds so much flavour and drama to the game, why not include it here?

Spiritualist in Stellaris is a merging of idealism and unspecified religion.

Its the idealism part that is the opposite to materialism.

To simplify it a lot, idealism is thought over matter, as in your thoughts and perception shape the world around you, things outside of the material existence (like for example the soul) are a given.

While materialism is that everything is simply matter and all you are is electrical impulses in your brain shaping your consciousness, things outside of the materialistic universe (again like the soul) are believed to not exist.

Note that in reality there are countless variations on both philosophies.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by MihaP:

Materialism deals with "ego", body, worldly/carnal desires, such as food and sex.

You make it sound like they are greedy or have no place for morality or intellectual desires. Materialists do not necessarily desire stuff (don't confuse it with extreme cases of capitalism). They simply do not believe in things outside of a materialistic universe (so the soul as a example). They also tend to like intellectual pursuits (Practical science as we know it being mostly founded on the materialistic way to view the world).

That said, fanatical materialist do tend to form their own (by our standard) twisted morality. But the same is true for pretty much any ethic once you bring it to a fanatical state.

[Karthor]

see it in an other way: nearly every ethic could be represent a religion.
There is a Star trek race (sorry, forgot their name), which are very religious. In their religion working on technological and cybernetical advancements is the true form of faith.
To create them for Stelleris imo they would Fanatic Materilist.

[MP]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

You make it sound like they are greedy or have no place for morality or intellectual desires. Materialists do not necessarily desire stuff (don't confuse it with extreme cases of capitalism). They simply do not believe in things outside of a materialistic universe (so the soul as a example). They also tend to like intellectual pursuits (Practical science as we know it being mostly founded on the materialistic way to view the world).

That said, fanatical materialist do tend to form their own (by our standard) twisted morality. But the same is true for pretty much any ethic once you bring it to a fanatical state.

No, materialism is about pursuing physical desires. I said desire because that is exactly what it is; you work because you desire money. You breed chickens because you desire chicken meat. You appease your angry SO with material gifts.

That's all materialism; solving problems with material solutions. That is materialism in the essence.

Spiritualism, on the other side, attempts to solve problems with non-materialistic solutions. A spiritualist wouldn't even squash a fly to make it less annoying; he ponders about why is he so annoyed and comes to a different solution that doesn't involve killing the fly that would be replaced by another fly. He just deals with it and eventually acclimates, eventually no longer getting annoyed by flies. He eats what he needs, not what he wants; he'll prefer vegetarian food, though he won't waste meat from an otherwise expired animal. It is all part of the circle of life, after all. He won't buy material gifts to appease his angry SO, either; instead, he tries to understand why she is angry and attempt to remediate that. Did he forget another of those anniversaries? Did he skip a chore?

That's what spiritualism is.

All in all, both materialism and spiritualism are two sides of the same coin. It is just that some are more outwardly materialistic while others are more outwardly spiritualistic. One can be materialistic when it comes to money, but spiritualistic when it comes to family.

Consider this: playing games like this is a materialistic activity in itself, because it attempts to fulfill a desire with cheap entertainment. In short, we waste time by spending time doing a meaningless and mildly amusing activity. A spiritualist would instead seek a more meaningful activity to pass the time with; weed the garden, visit estranged relatives or friends etc. Instead of fulfilling his own desire, a spiritualist tends to fulfill others' desires.

[corisai]

Well, pinnacle of being spiritualist in Stellaris is to became pawn and plaything of the Dark Gods (covenants). So... devs aren't like them ;)

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by MihaP:

No, materialism is about pursuing physical desires. I said desire because that is exactly what it is; you work because you desire money. You breed chickens because you desire chicken meat. You appease your angry SO with material gifts.

That's all materialism; solving problems with material solutions. That is materialism in the essence.

Spiritualism, on the other side, attempts to solve problems with non-materialistic solutions. A spiritualist wouldn't even squash a fly to make it less annoying; he ponders about why is he so annoyed and comes to a different solution that doesn't involve killing the fly that would be replaced by another fly. He just deals with it and eventually acclimates, eventually no longer getting annoyed by flies. He eats what he needs, not what he wants; he'll prefer vegetarian food, though he won't waste meat from an otherwise expired animal. It is all part of the circle of life, after all. He won't buy material gifts to appease his angry SO, either; instead, he tries to understand why she is angry and attempt to remediate that. Did he forget another of those anniversaries? Did he skip a chore?

That's what spiritualism is.

All in all, both materialism and spiritualism are two sides of the same coin. It is just that some are more outwardly materialistic while others are more outwardly spiritualistic. One can be materialistic when it comes to money, but spiritualistic when it comes to family.

Consider this: playing games like this is a materialistic activity in itself, because it attempts to fulfill a desire with cheap entertainment. In short, we waste time by spending time doing a meaningless and mildly amusing activity. A spiritualist would instead seek a more meaningful activity to pass the time with; weed the garden, visit estranged relatives or friends etc. Instead of fulfilling his own desire, a spiritualist tends to fulfill others' desires.

I think that you are mistaken when it comes to both materialists and spiritualists in Stellaris.

Spiritualists in Stellaris follow the philosophy of idealism (Holds consciousness or mind to be the "origin" of the material world – in the sense that it is a necessary condition for our positing of a material world – and it aims to explain the existing world according to these principles). This is apparent enough when reading their fluff text.

While materialists follow the philosophy of materialism (A form of philosophical monism that holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all things, including mental states and consciousness, are results of material interactions). When used in a philosophical content the word materialist does not necessarily include purchasing desires or approaching things the way you describe, its more of a way to view the world as a whole (No souls, no gods, nothing supernatural, nothing outside the material).

[Bloodartist]

Originally posted by Timmetry:

You could think about it this way... in Stellaris... spiritualism is ultimately based on something very real that physically manifests in the real universe and can even give you superpowers. Rather than having tons of separate religions that don't really do much except divide people via dogma of their own creation, Stellaris approaches religion as a search for Ultimate Truth... a search which can actually be completed... because that Ultimate Truth is actually out there and anyone with enough faith and perseverance can eventually grasp hold of it... truly ascending to a higher state of being that reaches beyond this universe entirely.

While I agree with Astasias and Kapikas assessment of spiritualism in stellaris, it is worth noting that two spiritual empires in Stellaris are seen as having common ground, rather than not. There is no real conflict between two (obviously) separate religions in stellaris.