Closed borders, and yet....

[VulcanTourist]

I've have closed borders with the certain empire - I have tripled-checked to confirm it - and yet in spite of that I've got the inglorious basterd's science vessels roaming my stellar countryside as if someone had given them a hall pass. WTF?

[Elitewrecker PT]

Mmm, another person brought up recently that a closed borders AI somehow was able to travel through, even outside of a truce. Could you screenshot the borders and that empire's diplomacy window?

[Foolswalkin]

I'm 90% confident I've had my science ships able to do this in the past as well. I wonder if there's something where the enemy closes borders and then either a. science ships don't get kicked out or b. your science ship is in a system when an enemy finishes building an outpost and you're suddenly inside their borders without ever crossing them as such.

[VulcanTourist]

Originally posted by Elitewrecker PT:

Mmm, another person brought up recently that a closed borders AI somehow was able to travel through, even outside of a truce. Could you screenshot the borders and that empire's diplomacy window?

Ummm... as it turns out I was in a truce with that race that the game quietly forced on me after I ended a war with them (in my favor). The truce forcibly kept the borders open, and I couldn't close them for, what, TEN YEARS?! I didn't discover that until after I asked the question and hadn't returned here to delete the thread or amend my discovery.

[Elitewrecker PT]

Yes, after a war there's a 10 year truce between both sides (and everyone in each of them) where you have open borders.

[VulcanTourist]

Originally posted by Elitewrecker PT:

Yes, after a war there's a 10 year truce between both sides (and everyone in each of them) where you have open borders.

If/when I begin modding the game, that will be one of my first targets. That's stupid and unrealistic, and I'd bet that Paradox knew it but wanted to force a certain style of play (as so many developers are inclined to do).

[Ryika]

Originally posted by VulcanTourist:

but wanted to force a certain style of play (as so many developers are inclined to do).

This trend began when they invented chess. Why can my knight only move in that weird pseudo-diagonal pattern instead of rushing right over to the king who's exposed over there?

Damn developers, always want to tell me how to play my games.

[pete3great]

Originally posted by Ryika:

Originally posted by VulcanTourist:

but wanted to force a certain style of play (as so many developers are inclined to do).

This trend began when they invented chess. Why can my knight only move in that weird pseudo-diagonal pattern instead of rushing right over to the king who's exposed over there?

Damn developers, always want to tell me how to play my games.

Starting to think OP is a troll, especially considering the way he's making multiple angry posts a day.

[VulcanTourist]

Originally posted by pete3great:

Originally posted by Ryika:

This trend began when they invented chess. Why can my knight only move in that weird pseudo-diagonal pattern instead of rushing right over to the king who's exposed over there?

Damn developers, always want to tell me how to play my games.

Starting to think OP is a troll, especially considering the way he's making multiple angry posts a day.

I'm starting to think you're a MAGA fanboi who likes to distort the truth and twist facts to suit your own desired narrative AKA propaganda. Trolls spew propaganda.

It's a verifiable fact that I haven't posted "multiple angry posts a day". More than anything else I've asked questions. I know now not to expect any answers from you.

[Sedmeister]

Originally posted by VulcanTourist:

Originally posted by Elitewrecker PT:

Yes, after a war there's a 10 year truce between both sides (and everyone in each of them) where you have open borders.

If/when I begin modding the game, that will be one of my first targets. That's stupid and unrealistic, and I'd bet that Paradox knew it but wanted to force a certain style of play (as so many developers are inclined to do).

My understanding is that they implemented the ten year rule because when borders immediately closed after a war, there were often times players fleets were caught on the other side of closed borders and couldn't return to friendly space so they were effectively cut off, unable to upgrade or reinforce.

[pete3great]

Originally posted by VulcanTourist:

I'm starting to think you're a MAGA fanboi who likes to distort the truth and twist facts to suit your own desired narrative AKA propaganda. Trolls spew propaganda.

It's a verifiable fact that I haven't posted "multiple angry posts a day". More than anything else I've asked questions. I know now not to expect any answers from you.

k.

[Gralzeim]

Originally posted by Sedmeister:

Originally posted by VulcanTourist:

If/when I begin modding the game, that will be one of my first targets. That's stupid and unrealistic, and I'd bet that Paradox knew it but wanted to force a certain style of play (as so many developers are inclined to do).

My understanding is that they implemented the ten year rule because when borders immediately closed after a war, there were often times players fleets were caught on the other side of closed borders and couldn't return to friendly space so they were effectively cut off, unable to upgrade or reinforce.

That, and any fleets inside the borders would go MIA for awhile. Annoying enough when a science ship gets suddenly MIA'd because you made first contact with an empire who immediately closed borders with you, worse if it's a good chunk of your military (or all of it), especially if they're expensive ships.


So yeah, this solution isn't perfect, OP, but it's the best one there currently is. Removing it is just going to end up with you inevitably getting your fleets stuck or missing and I'm pretty sure you'll find that worse than the AI sending some science ships through your territory.

[VulcanTourist]

Originally posted by Gralzeim:

Originally posted by Sedmeister:

My understanding is that they implemented the ten year rule because when borders immediately closed after a war, there were often times players fleets were caught on the other side of closed borders and couldn't return to friendly space so they were effectively cut off, unable to upgrade or reinforce.

That, and any fleets inside the borders would go MIA for awhile. Annoying enough when a science ship gets suddenly MIA'd because you made first contact with an empire who immediately closed borders with you, worse if it's a good chunk of your military (or all of it), especially if they're expensive ships.


So yeah, this solution isn't perfect, OP, but it's the best one there currently is. Removing it is just going to end up with you inevitably getting your fleets stuck or missing and I'm pretty sure you'll find that worse than the AI sending some science ships through your territory.

I would resolve that situation by one of two methods: (a) having a BRIEF grace-period open border, far less than 10 years and terminated immediately the moment that the last ship is no longer in violation, or (b) using some criteria to choose a destination and then instantly teleporting the infringing ships to that chosen system inside player territory. The criteria would weight in favor of the shortest distance, largest starbases, and nearness to the shared border. I've seen at least one other game use the latter mechanic, though I can't recall which one.

[Immortalis]

Originally posted by VulcanTourist:

I would resolve that situation by one of two methods: (a) having a BRIEF grace-period open border, far less than 10 years and terminated immediately the moment that the last ship is no longer in violation, or (b) using some criteria to choose a destination and then instantly teleporting the infringing ships to that chosen system inside player territory. The criteria would weight in favor of the shortest distance, largest starbases, and nearness to the shared border. I've seen at least one other game use the latter mechanic, though I can't recall which one.

Both of which have issues of their own.

How brief is a brief grace period, when you normally look at 600+ days of travel just to move through the enemy empire (more if you select a bigger galaxy size)? How would the game differentiate between ships that were already inside the enemy's borders and those that entered afterwards (say a science ship moving to analyze the debris field)? What happens if your fleet, along the route to return to your own border, happens to cross an unclaimed system in the midst of the enemy's empire, thus being no longer inside its borders but still far away from your own and effectively locked in the middle of someone else's territory? How would you handle coding the AI to handle of all this new mechanic? How often would you code the game to check for the prerequisites of such effect taking place?

Teleporting ships possibily across the galaxy would be lore breaking in so many different ways on its own since there is no other mechanic that allows for instant teleportation without any drawback and certainly not across the galaxy. Would the teleportation mechanic recognise allied starbases as your own (as the AI does when you tell them to return to a friendly starbase)? If so, how would you avoid your fleet being trapped behind the enemy's border just because you've liberated / allied a small nation on the other side of it? What happens if you're at war with more than one empire? Would the fleet recognise an occupied system from that second empire as "friendly" thus teleporting your fleet one jump away from the front? Suppose there's a battle happening in the target system, would the fleet just teleport in, join the fray and possibly turn the tide?

In programming and modding very rarely you stumble across an "obvious" solution. And if it seems that nobody before you thought about it it's very much possible that they, in fact, thought about it just a bit longer than you did and realised it was not *that* simple nor *that* easy. Best of luck to you.

[VulcanTourist]

Originally posted by Immortalis:

In programming and modding very rarely you stumble across an "obvious" solution. And if it seems that nobody before you thought about it it's very much possible that they, in fact, thought about it just a bit longer than you did and realised it was not *that* simple nor *that* easy. Best of luck to you.

No, I didn't think about it for more than a few moments. It was just a back-of-the-napkin thought in between musical numbers at the club. If I committed to the notion then more intensive investigation would follow. A creative engineer finds solutions to potential setbacks like that. I never think inside the box. I've been both a programmer once and a modder, and every instructor and employer I had in the field was impressed with my ability, especially to find uncommon unexpected methods to solve problems. If I was motivated to do this and the game allows implementing those solutions in any fashion, it would get done.

[Sedmeister]

Originally posted by Immortalis:

Originally posted by VulcanTourist:

I would resolve that situation by one of two methods: (a) having a BRIEF grace-period open border, far less than 10 years and terminated immediately the moment that the last ship is no longer in violation, or (b) using some criteria to choose a destination and then instantly teleporting the infringing ships to that chosen system inside player territory. The criteria would weight in favor of the shortest distance, largest starbases, and nearness to the shared border. I've seen at least one other game use the latter mechanic, though I can't recall which one.

Both of which have issues of their own.

How brief is a brief grace period, when you normally look at 600+ days of travel just to move through the enemy empire (more if you select a bigger galaxy size)? How would the game differentiate between ships that were already inside the enemy's borders and those that entered afterwards (say a science ship moving to analyze the debris field)? What happens if your fleet, along the route to return to your own border, happens to cross an unclaimed system in the midst of the enemy's empire, thus being no longer inside its borders but still far away from your own and effectively locked in the middle of someone else's territory? How would you handle coding the AI to handle of all this new mechanic? How often would you code the game to check for the prerequisites of such effect taking place?

Teleporting ships possibily across the galaxy would be lore breaking in so many different ways on its own since there is no other mechanic that allows for instant teleportation without any drawback and certainly not across the galaxy. Would the teleportation mechanic recognise allied starbases as your own (as the AI does when you tell them to return to a friendly starbase)? If so, how would you avoid your fleet being trapped behind the enemy's border just because you've liberated / allied a small nation on the other side of it? What happens if you're at war with more than one empire? Would the fleet recognise an occupied system from that second empire as "friendly" thus teleporting your fleet one jump away from the front? Suppose there's a battle happening in the target system, would the fleet just teleport in, join the fray and possibly turn the tide?

In programming and modding very rarely you stumble across an "obvious" solution. And if it seems that nobody before you thought about it it's very much possible that they, in fact, thought about it just a bit longer than you did and realised it was not *that* simple nor *that* easy. Best of luck to you.

My issue during a truce is actually their science ships being able to waltz around my Empire or worse, if I've bottled them in, loads of their construction ships crossing the frontier and claiming systems I was planning to backfill or even on the other side of my borders.

If be happy if the ten year rule could be limited to warships.