A quick discussion on Galactic Emperor and the new Overlord system --- Perhaps balancing is needed?

[LateJoker]

I recently have played a few games with my friends in multiplayer. By mid game I can usually get 3k science to 4k depending on my focus and civ type. I have run into what I'm starting to feel may be a balancing issue. I have now seen a few times a civ that is "pathetic" to me in every category in the diplomacy screen, but are first in the victory screen because of their subject power. The amount of victory points they gain for their subjects is way too high. Despite having no science, economy, or fleet power a random small civ will be first in the victory screen solely because of the sheer volume of subjects it has. I have play tested this by allowing the civ to live to near end game, and I find that the amount of points they get from being an overlord is unbelievable even by the mid game. I just had a computer civ pathetic in all categories have +66k victory points because of his subjects by mid game. Meanwhile all his subjects have pledged secret fealty to me, and I don't even get a small amount of points for having his vassal essentially pledge to me. So I decided to let it go and just see how far the computer civ will take this victory point spamming. By the end game the victory points had become overwhelming. I once again didn't declare war on him because I wanted to test the overlord update. So I figured a nice way to see if you could stop a player from winning based on subject power was to declare the galactic imperium. To my dismay, after vasalizing the galaxy, including the computer civ spamming victory points i received not a single point for ANY subjects. I felt that was weird, as I had just created the galactic imperium. How could I ---> 1) not gain any points for being emperor, and 2) not gain any points for vassalizing every computer civ. Furthermore, the computer spamming subject victory points STILL had his subjects and all his subject victory points. I had figured as emperor that either two things may happen. 1) The computer civ would lose his vassals as he now is a vassal of mine. Or 2) I would atleast gain victory points as I was the emperor over the computer civ with the overwhelming subject power. Should I not get victory points if his subjects are directly controlled by him, yet still fall under my tutelage as he is part of my galactic empire? In my opinion, the overlord update has put way too much emphasis on "subject" victory points. As a consequence, the galactic imperium doesn't really feel like a entity that is vassalizing anything. In fact, it feels more like being the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, which isn't a great thing. In fact, as it stands with the overlord update I see nearly no reason to go the galactic emperor route. Furthermore, I believe that the overlord update may have sadly empowered "pathetic" civs to have victory points well above even fallen empires' victory points by the mid game. Obviously, war is a way that this can be fixed but purely on a mathematical level the points civs get for subjects are too heavily skewed. I am of the opinion that this is an area that really needs to be balanced. Also there aren't really enough options as emperor to directly affect your own vassal subjects. I cant retract vassals, or even transfer them. In the games current state its more a liability to be emperor than anything else, which is a real shame.

[ScreamCon]

aw man, I really wish you cut that up into easier digestible pieces with headlines what your addressing

balancing on current version, yea things still need more balancing.

[Elitewrecker PT]

Emperor doesn't make them true vassals, it's basically just a different kind of federation.

But yes, in my current game I'm just slightly behind an empire that has 60k points (like 3/4 of his score) from having vassals and a federation made up mostly of those vassals (double dipping on them vassal points).
He's equivalent in tech and economy, but pathetic in fleet.

[LateJoker]

Originally posted by Elitewrecker PT:

Emperor doesn't make them true vassals, it's basically just a different kind of federation.

But yes, in my current game I'm just slightly behind an empire that has 60k points (like 3/4 of his score) from having vassals and a federation made up mostly of those vassals (double dipping on them vassal points).
He's equivalent in tech and economy, but pathetic in fleet.

Ahh that makes more sense, even if I don't like the way it plays out I gotta respect the design choice I guess. I was speaking to a friend who has nearly only played galactic council. Always fighting for favors and that kind of play through. He said the new update has really made that play-style one of the most powerful. A few friends of mine who also play science civs like me were saying a nice addition would victory points for mega structures, as they are an empire wide project with serious costs (perhaps only mega structures inside the 'galactic wonders tree').