Xenophilic?

[Eboreus]

Since I started my new game (that was already before the update) about 70 or 80 % of the messages about some empires changing their policies are about how they get more xenophilic. Is that just pure chance? Or are the devs trying to implement some ideology?

[frowningmirror]

Originally posted by bri:

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

And why do you suppose that is?

Because the devs are left wing, sjw nutjobs? That at least appears to be the hypothesis. Of course I'd side with the guy who said there needs to be a more middle ground position that doesn't push you into the Xenophile ethic. You can work with people without going the full bosom buddy route but instead having a cautious approach.

You've all done a lot of complaining but little reasoning about the "benefits" of a space racist society.

I'll say this, I've read books by biologists and sociologists that say mutualism ensures survival of a species better than parasitism, because it doesn't run the risk of killing the host it benefits from.

[sharky952]

What if too many races in an empire creates further instability, and can cause a racial civil war. If such civil war were to happen, it will reflect poorly other foreign empires and build a xenophobic sentiment.

[Jimmy Hunter]

Originally posted by GoblinCookie:

The extremeness of the games pro-Xenophile bias leads me to call it propaganda.

That isn't propaganda in any way shape or form. They are not putting ideas in your head to think a certain way, nor is there any evidence that Paradox believes in "One World Nation". You're making a whole bunch of leaps of logic that already have no basis, nevermind the whole bit of there being no correlation, nevermind a causality to create said correlation.

But then again, bigots in this day and age aren't well educated. If they were, they'd realize how dumb their tribalism behavior is and how it's holding back humanity from being worried about skin tone, accent, language, or even faith.

The actual core logic of the Xenophobe is basically that 'not everyone who claims to be your friend *is* actually your friend', thus you keep to yourself and do not make unnecessary friends. It is not 'we hate aliens because hate different things for no reason.

If we're going to apply "Xeno"phobe to reality, we all know that it would accurately be compared to racism and bigotry. Last I checked, Nazis, KKK, Black Panthers, or whatever skin-color supremacy group you'd like to use would not be using any kind of "Well we don't really like them, we'll tolerate them as needed". Instead, it's the Determined Exterminator style of "You're not like us so enjoy the hatred we'll be throwing at you".

So in essence, I'd argue that Xenophobia is quite well fleshed out. To the point where there are various ways beyond full out Dalek style "EXTERMINATE" for you to express those bigoted views in game.

[frowningmirror]

Originally posted by appleseeds715:

What if too many races in an empire creates further instability, and can cause a racial civil war. If such civil war were to happen, it will reflect poorly other foreign empires and build a xenophobic sentiment.

Why would "too many races" create further instability? There are already mechanics in the game that cause xenophobia to rise if a species of another empire has committed genocide on another.

[sharky952]

Originally posted by frowningmirror:

Why would "too many races" create further instability?

IDK maybe a race get treated better than other thus create division (ie you put your main specie in social warfare while other just got decent living standard). Maybe some random event to navigate managing many races' needs, failing too many of those events can lead to racial civil war, while succeeding rewards you some unity or something.

Originally posted by frowningmirror:

There are already mechanics in the game that cause xenophobia to rise if a species of another empire has committed genocide on another.

But isn't the mechanic overall favor xenophile rather than xenophobic? Why not put another mechanic to compensate?

[frowningmirror]

Xenophobia has been boosted to be extremely powerful if anything. It controls the early game with its pop bonuses, (the strongest bonus you can get btw). I doubt the "Xenophobia irl is actually good" people can come up with anything strictly beneficial by being a racist, violence and restrictive slavery means you're more focused on creating a system of harm and violence than anything productive, you have to waste energy on policing, prisons, and subjugating the population ect.

[frowningmirror]

Originally posted by appleseeds715:

Originally posted by frowningmirror:

Why would "too many races" create further instability?

IDK maybe a race get treated better than other thus create division (ie you put your main specie in social warfare while other just got decent living standard). Maybe some random event to navigate managing many races' needs, failing too many of those events can lead to racial civil war, while succeeding rewards you some unity or something.

Then that's a problem with space racism i.e. the authoritarianism and xenophobia ethics taking over a xenophilic society, not a problem with xenophobia or xenophilia mechanics itself. In this game, in a slavery society, if you let undoctrinated pops get political power away from the xenophobic elite class, instability occurs in the form of a revolution.

Originally posted by appleseeds715:

Originally posted by frowningmirror:

There are already mechanics in the game that cause xenophobia to rise if a species of another empire has committed genocide on another.

But isn't the mechanic overall favor xenophile rather than xenophobic? Why not put another mechanic to compensate?

I think xenophobes have been thrown enough bones, genocidal is extremely meta and gets you huge military bonuses, and the extra pop production is super strong too.

As a xenophile you just exploit the ♥♥♥♥ out of the trade system and create federations which takes time to build. Doesn't seem like they're making a political statement about anything, but the fash dude-bros here have to be appeased

[Ashling]

Originally posted by GoblinCookie:

The Stellaris 'moral of the story' is that you can combine people of an indefinite number of diverse backgrounds without any problems at all.

The 'moral of the story' is extremely strong, every mechanic in the game agrees with the Xenophile's worldview and nothing at all with the Xenophobe worldview.

If you have a democratic nation and a foreign xeno takes charge then a xenophobic event and faction can appear causing unrest (this happened in one of my first games and it basically ruined half the empire), Plus, some Xeno’s are literally better, like flat out, than others and all of them often come with strange beliefs like slavery and autocracy which might effect a planet’s happiness.

I know my species, their faults/strengths, and I don’t like the micromanagement that comes with other species unless I’m specifically trying for that kind of game.

[antred]

Originally posted by GoblinCookie:

There is no attempt to explain why anyone would ever be one and there are no penalties to combining endless species together on the same worlds. Reality is Pro-Xenophile in Stellaris because every species is modelled as behaving as the ideal Xenophile citizen, with no pesky collective identities and enmities to worry about.

My problem with this is not so much ideological as biological. All these different species would have vastly different and most likely incompatible requirements regarding the environment the inhabit. They'd breathe different atmospheres (both in composition and pressure), need different gravity, and their vastly different physiques would mean that you could not possibly design buildings and infrastructure suitable to all of them.

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by Triangle:

Originally posted by GoblinCookie:

The Stellaris 'moral of the story' is that you can combine people of an indefinite number of diverse backgrounds without any problems at all.

The 'moral of the story' is extremely strong, every mechanic in the game agrees with the Xenophile's worldview and nothing at all with the Xenophobe worldview.

If you have a democratic nation and a foreign xeno takes charge then a xenophobic event and faction can appear causing unrest (this happened in one of my first games and it basically ruined half the empire), Plus, some Xeno’s are literally better, like flat out, than others and all of them often come with strange beliefs like slavery and autocracy which might effect a planet’s happiness.

I know my species, their faults/strengths, and I don’t like the micromanagement that comes with other species unless I’m specifically trying for that kind of game.

Yes, happiness for each individual being (which affects average happiness for the entire planet) is at least somewhat influenced by their faction's approval. That's literally already how it works.

Originally posted by antred:

Originally posted by GoblinCookie:

There is no attempt to explain why anyone would ever be one and there are no penalties to combining endless species together on the same worlds. Reality is Pro-Xenophile in Stellaris because every species is modelled as behaving as the ideal Xenophile citizen, with no pesky collective identities and enmities to worry about.

My problem with this is not so much ideological as biological. All these different species would have vastly different and most likely incompatible requirements regarding the environment the inhabit. They'd breathe different atmospheres (both in composition and pressure), need different gravity, and their vastly different physiques would mean that you could not possibly design buildings and infrastructure suitable to all of them.

Buildings, amenities, and consumer goods are universal precisely to avoid any such issues. It's a simplification to prevent unnecessary micro-managing.

[GoblinCookie]

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

And why do you suppose that is?

Because the game is propaganda for Xenophile ideas. The devs are extremely biased in that direction to the point they want to add in an author-insert but cannot balance the two parties. The author-is-on-board with one party and game balance suffers as a result.

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Yeah, that's called being neutral.

You don't have to pick either xenophile or xenophobe if you don't want to. Most of the species I've made have neither one. However, if you pick either one, then you have to accept the consequences.

I'd say the fact that the more your people interact with aliens, the more they become xenophilic, is 100% realistic. People only hate people who are different from them until they actually get to know them and realize they're not all that different. There are some exceptions, since some people are too stubborn to admit they were wrong, but that's almost always the case.

Clearly that isn't completely realistic, because else there would be the same uncontrolled Xenophile run in reality that there is in the game. The more friendly I am, the more friends I make and therefore the more friendly I become.

You never have to suffer for your Xenophilia in the game. In reality, there may be an initial Xenophile-run but it runs up against the problem that eventually you become so trusting that your enemies pretend to be your friends and later betray you at which point some people learns that maybe Xenophobia had a point after-all.

The problem with Xenophilia is it involves and promotes trust and trust is dangerous. If you look at the game, everything has been done to maximise the fundamental honesty of the game, think how long it took them to add a rather basic mechanic like spying and how they add Xenophile fun-stuff like the Galactic Community and nonsense like Xeno-Compatability into the game.

In Stellaris, some folks might be your enemies but everyone can be trusted. That is because if you want to promote Xenophilia in a medium, you have to create a simulated logic governed by a high level of trust. Conversely if you want to promote Xenophobia, you have the maximise the backstabbing to create a world where you can trust nobody but yourself.

Xenophobes aren't what they are because they hate the alien for no reason. They are just so fundamentally suspicious and paranoid that they assume the alien is a threat because that is the 'safe thing to do'. They don't need alien friends and so they conclude that they are best off without them.

Xenophobia is not directly promoted by simply having the aliens be enemies, this will fail to 'carry over' to reality since the aliens aren't real. Instead what you have is teach everybody to be untrusting and suspicious by constantly showing them the negative consequences of being trusting.

[GoblinCookie]

Originally posted by antred:

My problem with this is not so much ideological as biological. All these different species would have vastly different and most likely incompatible requirements regarding the environment the inhabit. They'd breathe different atmospheres (both in composition and pressure), need different gravity, and their vastly different physiques would mean that you could not possibly design buildings and infrastructure suitable to all of them.

The environment they inhabit is already explicitly stated in the game and the costs of providing an artificial environment is converted implicitly by extra amenities and consumer good requirements.

[GoblinCookie]

Originally posted by Jimmy Hunter:

That isn't propaganda in any way shape or form. They are not putting ideas in your head to think a certain way, nor is there any evidence that Paradox believes in "One World Nation". You're making a whole bunch of leaps of logic that already have no basis, nevermind the whole bit of there being no correlation, nevermind a causality to create said correlation.

But then again, bigots in this day and age aren't well educated. If they were, they'd realize how dumb their tribalism behavior is and how it's holding back humanity from being worried about skin tone, accent, language, or even faith.

They are putting ideas in our heads to think a certain way and it is actually a good thing.

Originally posted by Jimmy Hunter:

If we're going to apply "Xeno"phobe to reality, we all know that it would accurately be compared to racism and bigotry. Last I checked, Nazis, KKK, Black Panthers, or whatever skin-color supremacy group you'd like to use would not be using any kind of "Well we don't really like them, we'll tolerate them as needed". Instead, it's the Determined Exterminator style of "You're not like us so enjoy the hatred we'll be throwing at you".

So in essence, I'd argue that Xenophobia is quite well fleshed out. To the point where there are various ways beyond full out Dalek style "EXTERMINATE" for you to express those bigoted views in game.

No, those groups typically are about keeping power and wealth in the hands of their own group while exploiting other groups as basically slaves. Xenophobes are not determined exterminators except in fantasy, because that is entirely irrational.

Xenophobia is not simply 'hatred'. Fear and greed are a stronger motive.

[pipo.p]

I don't see much ideology or plan to influence the minds.
Designers decided that any culture would evolve in ethics when they "train" on their associated moral values.

Cultures that are exposed to war will evolve toward militarism.
Cultures that are exposed to peace will evolve toward pacifism.
Cultures that are exposed to others (empires, ambassies, refugees, immigrants) will evolve toward xenophilia.
Cultures that are threatened as a species will evolve toward xenophobia.

[Eboreus]

Originally posted by appleseeds715:

What if too many races in an empire creates further instability, and can cause a racial civil war. If such civil war were to happen, it will reflect poorly other foreign empires and build a xenophobic sentiment.

In real life we see that multiethnic states tend to be unstable. Only exception I can think of is Switzerland. And they have this unique tale of Oath of Ruetli and Comradeship of Oath.