The eternal problem of pops and how to fix it.

[Ninjamestari]

Or at the very least alleviate the pain.
Ever since megacorp the game has suffered from overpopulation, quite literally. Pops become so numerous that the CPUs can't handle the workload anymore. There is a design change that seems rather obvious that could easily be done to remedy the situation, or at the very least help a LOT.

The first thing is simply to remove the redundant housing mechanic completely, also remove unemployment. Have jobs essentially be slots a pop can either migrate or grow into. Tie building slots to the number of city districts and remove all other sources of buildings. Finally have all buildings and districts each only have 1 job slot each, this would effectively limit the number of pops to the planet size, like it was in distant past when there were almost no issues with pops. Have upgraded buildings offer larger yields instead of more job slots and adjust all economic costs/yields and pop base growth to accommodate for the lower number of overall pops.

I really don't understand why this hasn't been done already.

[RodHull]

Publicado originalmente por GoblinCookie:

Yes, theoretically you can cram immense numbers of people into boxes in orbit. People might live in those boxes, but nobody wants to raise children in such conditions, so little pop growth.

Psychologically the size of the planet matters, but from a brute efficiency standpoint it doesn't.

I respectfully disagree. A planet the size of earth can support less physical structures (by a large margin) than earth. Clearly the numbers Stellaris deals with are abstracted, I mean I'mm not suggesting its a difference of a few buildings, but I have always presumed the numbers in Stellaris are abstracted anyway or they simply don't make sense.

Bottom line a planet the size of Mars can and should have more output than a planet the size of earth. Presuming they have similar proportions of usable space (which is presumed in the size calculation to start with)

[GoblinCookie]

Publicado originalmente por §þ¡К₤:

The entire individual pop system is the flaw.
Using individual pops as representation is simply not needed, you can get the same outcome by using simple species count and then having building/district planet slots unlock based upon that number without needing designated pops for output. They could even use a percentage based system vs pop count for building output, unemployed, criminals, to make those mechanics actually matter.
The game already has all the counters to develop such a system, it would require reworking in certain areas, which could take some time, but the devs have been reworking the pop system for several years already without much success anyway.

We have pops rather than numbers to put a human face on them, so we care about them more and can have a 'relationship' with them.

[GoblinCookie]

Publicado originalmente por RodHull:

I respectfully disagree. A planet the size of earth can support less physical structures (by a large margin) than earth. Clearly the numbers Stellaris deals with are abstracted, I mean I'mm not suggesting its a difference of a few buildings, but I have always presumed the numbers in Stellaris are abstracted anyway or they simply don't make sense.

Bottom line a planet the size of Mars can and should have more output than a planet the size of earth. Presuming they have similar proportions of usable space (which is presumed in the size calculation to start with)

The size is irrelevant, since the numbers are so astronomically vast that it really doesn't matter the relative size of the planets. Given we are talking 3D, you can just cram trillions of individual people into a small planets.

The issue is psychological. People won't want to live and reproduce in the resulting tiny boxes in your 3D orbital exostructure you built around the overcrowded planet.

[Revan Tair]

I did a similar suggestion after 3.0 hit (each district and building give 1 job, so a max 25 world would have 37 pop and jobs before upgrades, on a basic level). Coupling the pop growth with jobs is imo also a very good suggestion OP.

The thing is, paradox right now does not want a good solution. they need money (20€ for a DLC, reused content, no real rework of traditions (Void Dweller for example are still bare bones tradition perk wise etc)), dunno if it's greed or the actual need for money to pay their devs/fund stuff.

I mean, get me wrong, but if you want to reduce pops in late game, than reduce the jobs. it's pretty simple. The only thing I can see in this iteration of 3.0, thtat is good, is the "provide +1 job per district" and maybe better yields of space resources.

Imo the latter should be the main thing of Stellaris. The economy should have its mainstay in space, not on a planet. You should have more resources in space and not on damn planets. Planets are for your pops! Make Starbases worthwhile. Let us use Gas Giants, Asteroid Belts, Suns and other celestial bodies better, make them upgradeable. Stop gating everything behind tech, so you dont need to tech rush with every empire type.

[§þ¡К₤]

Publicado originalmente por GoblinCookie:

Publicado originalmente por §þ¡К₤:

The entire individual pop system is the flaw.
Using individual pops as representation is simply not needed, you can get the same outcome by using simple species count and then having building/district planet slots unlock based upon that number without needing designated pops for output. They could even use a percentage based system vs pop count for building output, unemployed, criminals, to make those mechanics actually matter.
The game already has all the counters to develop such a system, it would require reworking in certain areas, which could take some time, but the devs have been reworking the pop system for several years already without much success anyway.

We have pops rather than numbers to put a human face on them, so we care about them more and can have a 'relationship' with them.

lol, you can still have a face besides the species count, just like the species count under the species tab currently has.

I would like to see more depth towards all the various species though, currently most empires feel just like any other empire, even fallen empires feel fairly generic after the first couple playthroughs.

[RodHull]

Publicado originalmente por GoblinCookie:

Publicado originalmente por RodHull:

I respectfully disagree. A planet the size of earth can support less physical structures (by a large margin) than earth. Clearly the numbers Stellaris deals with are abstracted, I mean I'mm not suggesting its a difference of a few buildings, but I have always presumed the numbers in Stellaris are abstracted anyway or they simply don't make sense.

Bottom line a planet the size of Mars can and should have more output than a planet the size of earth. Presuming they have similar proportions of usable space (which is presumed in the size calculation to start with)

The size is irrelevant, since the numbers are so astronomically vast that it really doesn't matter the relative size of the planets. Given we are talking 3D, you can just cram trillions of individual people into a small planets.

The issue is psychological. People won't want to live and reproduce in the resulting tiny boxes in your 3D orbital exostructure you built around the overcrowded planet.

You are presuming the 'pops' don't represent trillions of people (which imo they do, well billions but same diff)

[GoblinCookie]

Publicado originalmente por RodHull:

You are presuming the 'pops' don't represent trillions of people (which imo they do, well billions but same diff)

I know they are not, because the amount of food they eat is not enough. I would say they are about 500 million people round about, given how much food they eat.

It also does not change anything of my point. The point is that there is a difference between housing folks and actually giving them a place they would actually want to live and raise children. The ability to provide the former is near-infinite and large uneffected by planet size, the latter is not.

[Athmet]

Publicado originalmente por Talamare:

3 - Introduce growth penalties as you approach the housing limit, it scales progressively starting at 75% of housing capacity, reaching a 50% growth penalty at 100% housing capacity, then scales more aggressively reaching 90% growth penalty at 110% housing.

The current system already has that in place. It checks your current planet capacity which includes the total housing. The more you create industrial or mining/farming district the less you get as a bonus to growth. To offset this you can either get more City district and/or houses in building slots.

[Crim]

Publicado originalmente por Athmet:

Publicado originalmente por Talamare:

3 - Introduce growth penalties as you approach the housing limit, it scales progressively starting at 75% of housing capacity, reaching a 50% growth penalty at 100% housing capacity, then scales more aggressively reaching 90% growth penalty at 110% housing.

The current system already has that in place. It checks your current planet capacity which includes the total housing. The more you create industrial or mining/farming district the less you get as a bonus to growth. To offset this you can either get more City district and/or houses in building slots.

I'm saying to remove Planet Capacity, its an awkward and inorganic system that shouldn't be needed

Housing should act as the inherent Planet Capacity

[Athmet]

Publicado originalmente por Talamare:

Publicado originalmente por Athmet:

The current system already has that in place. It checks your current planet capacity which includes the total housing. The more you create industrial or mining/farming district the less you get as a bonus to growth. To offset this you can either get more City district and/or houses in building slots.

I'm saying to remove Planet Capacity, its an awkward and inorganic system that shouldn't be needed

Housing should act as the inherent Planet Capacity

I do not agree: when you colonize a planet, it is virgin of any infrastructure (usually).

Then you have the choice, put all housing, half, a mix, etc.... So the planet capacity plays its role since it has the "potential" to house a lot of people until you reduce that potential for further constructing industry/farming/mining district.

[Crim]

Publicado originalmente por Athmet:

Publicado originalmente por Talamare:

I'm saying to remove Planet Capacity, its an awkward and inorganic system that shouldn't be needed

Housing should act as the inherent Planet Capacity

I do not agree: when you colonize a planet, it is virgin of any infrastructure (usually).

Then you have the choice, put all housing, half, a mix, etc.... So the planet capacity plays its role since it has the "potential" to house a lot of people until you reduce that potential for further constructing industry/farming/mining district.

I think you're imagining a system that is more complex than it actually is...

It's literally Housing + (Districts * 4)
If your pop goes above half the above value, you start suffering penalties

The above system wouldn't be needed if they just nerfed housing a little.

[Athmet]

Publicado originalmente por Talamare:

Publicado originalmente por Athmet:

I do not agree: when you colonize a planet, it is virgin of any infrastructure (usually).

Then you have the choice, put all housing, half, a mix, etc.... So the planet capacity plays its role since it has the "potential" to house a lot of people until you reduce that potential for further constructing industry/farming/mining district.

I think you're imagining a system that is more complex than it actually is...

It's literally Housing + (Districts * 4)
If your pop goes above half the above value, you start suffering penalties

The above system wouldn't be needed if they just nerfed housing a little.

It is "unused district x 4"

[Crim]

Publicado originalmente por Athmet:

Publicado originalmente por Talamare:

I think you're imagining a system that is more complex than it actually is...

It's literally Housing + (Districts * 4)
If your pop goes above half the above value, you start suffering penalties

The above system wouldn't be needed if they just nerfed housing a little.

It is "unused district x 4"

It's "unblocked districts x4"

[SkiRich]

Publicado originalmente por Talamare:

Housing should act as the inherent Planet Capacity

Thats the solution. Housing from any district any building and tech and the often overlooked luxury residence.

[Athmet]

Publicado originalmente por Talamare:

Publicado originalmente por Athmet:

It is "unused district x 4"

It's "unblocked districts x4"

I usually do not like to be that guy linking Youtube "as proof" but I tested it myself and worked: https://youtu.be/TvVcYaZUqDU?t=233

Unused :)

Edit: the link starts at that moment where he explains the carrying capacity