Stellaris

Stellaris

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Fleet getting chewed up even though I should be winning.
After several fights where I got messed up through my own ignorance, I went and did my research. I looked at what weapons are best against what defenses, and I designed my ships in my new game with the enemy I was fighting in mind. So, I got a fleet together. 10 destroyers, a ll missiles (T3). No armor, heavy on shields (2). Had 44 corvettes, torpedo boats, same shield config. All told, around 3k fleet power. My enemy is using lasers (cutting lasers) and shields (T1). Had around 5 destroyers and something like 56 corvettes. Total fleet power of about 2.5k. Ships engage, and my ships just get chewed through like tissue paper. I don't get it. Everything I read said that missiles are good against shields, and that lasers are bad against shields. I'm actually kinda getting angry at this point because it seems like I'm just destined to lose *even if I do my homework*. Am I just missing something crucial? Our engines and sensors are at the same tech level. I took out his destroyers, but I lost every single corvette and he's only down 18 of his.
Última edição por SuperExoticShrub; 26/out./2016 às 5:28
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Exibindo comentários 115 de 25
SpaceToast 26/out./2016 às 5:31 
ive noticed it all comes down to who has more ships now....naval capacity is everything. No matter how far ahead I am of my opponent the AI is able to field 3x the ships I can, even with = amount of planets/stations. i think they get a boost to there naval capacity.
THEOTHERJESTER 26/out./2016 às 5:41 
Yeah it's all about capacity and ship numbers now. You'd think a battleship with fallen empire level tech would be able to take on like 2 dozen little corvettes from an inferior empire. But nope. You get totally swarmed.

I don't know if it's just me and all the mods I use to make stellaris playable but did something happen with the fleet power of ships? I can vividly remember having 1k+ strength battleships and now towards end game I can't even get them up to a 1k.
Nighthaven 26/out./2016 às 5:42 
I actually had a few fights with the AI where I killed fleets twice as mstrong as mine, and won with only a loss of half my fleet. It does come down to overall fleet composition and AI bonuses. For instance, if your enemy was in any way militaristic, he may have had bonus to damage.
Otherwise, Missles have a big disadvantage, your whole fleet will go for no more then three targets at a time, and all shots fired at those targets are lost in transition when the target explodes before their impact.

The advantage of Lasers and Kinetic weapons is the little timelag between shot fired and impact, and due to the often smaller range, the range of targets engaged is much larger too.

In short, Missles are nice, but to shred shields, use kinetic, to waste Armor, use lasers, and throw in some Torpedoes for good measure, and most of all, keep the new ship roles in mind, Destroyers are supossed to be Corvette killers, and if thats in any way true, dont throw Missles on them, go guns blazing for the fastest effect, missles are best used as long range support in my eyes.

Another thing to keep in mind is rules of engagement. Have ships dedicated to snipe Close range fighters before they engage into close combat, because Corvettes seem to shine the moment they get into close combat, take out as many as you can before then with support vessels, while you have a dedicated ship to tank and dish out close quarter damage at them.

Essentially your strategy wasn't wrong, however, no armor, if the AI even seen one of your ships before that Engagement, it should have switched to Torpedoes whom bypass Shilds, and thus, leave your ships with no defense whatsoever, and trust me, if the AI has the resources, it will go and abuse these weaknesses. Sector AI may be dump, but the AI least considers the Siccor / Stone / Paper system.
Nighthaven 26/out./2016 às 5:44 
Escrito originalmente por THEOTHERJESTER:
Yeah it's all about capacity and ship numbers now. You'd think a battleship with fallen empire level tech would be able to take on like 2 dozen little corvettes from an inferior empire. But nope. You get totally swarmed.

I don't know if it's just me and all the mods I use to make stellaris playable but did something happen with the fleet power of ships? I can vividly remember having 1k+ strength battleships and now towards end game I can't even get them up to a 1k.

A battleship will never outdoe a Corvette the moment Close combat starts. Battleships have been turned into a Long range engagement ship, the moment the Corvette is close, the Battleship turrets are unlikely able to hit due to evade / tracking impass. Long range, you'll pawn them, but once close combat happens, say bye bye to your battleship, even if its just one corvette.

Only Exception being missles, but those focus fire to much, and you need to outfit your Battleship with loads of smaller turrets rather then long range, thus Large turrets..
Última edição por Nighthaven; 26/out./2016 às 5:45
SuperExoticShrub 26/out./2016 às 5:53 
Both of us are pretty early in the tech levels, and we're both focused on one type. None of his ships have anything but lasers. Mine are all missiles because that's all I've had the ability to train so far. Neither of us even have the tech for cruisers yet.
SuperExoticShrub 26/out./2016 às 5:57 
So, I ended up retreating with my destroyers, started mass building more corvettes (maybe I should just be spamming destroyers, since he's all corvettes?). He lost some of his fleet killing two of my spaceports, and I sent in the fleet which was back up to about 1k to assist the second station. Finally wiped him up, and now I just reinforcing my own fleet so I can finally take the planets that were the whole point of this. So, initial idiotic defeat that I've turned around since then. Still, I feel like it shouldn't have been so lopsided in the beginning. I'm enjoying the game for the most part, but the combat is absolute garbage.
Azunai 26/out./2016 às 5:57 
your error was in using missiles. they are NOT good against shields. in fact, they aren't good against anything at all. their only advantage is that they have a high "tracking" stat, which means they have a decent chance to hit high evasion targets like corvettes.

unfortunately, missiles in this game have always been underpowered because they don't switch target when the current target is destroyed - they just vanish. ships tend to focus fire, so the larger your fleet gets, the more missiles are wasted to overkill.

in your example, chances are that all of your ships were launching a volley at one of theirs. that single ship probably got pulverized, but most of the missiles that were launched at it actually didn't do anything.

i was hoping the devs would fix that in the new patch, but missiles are still as useless as they always were.

conclusion: don't use missiles. ignore that tech branch. it's only good for unlocking the follow up torpedo tech, afterwards stop following that path. if you can salvage torpedoes from another empire, you can work from there and safely skip the rest of the missle tech tree.

in the current game, i think mass drivers are probably the best weapon for the early game. later on, both the kinetic and energy weapon trees have some cool stuff and i guess both are quite viable, but missiles are *really really bad*
SuperExoticShrub 26/out./2016 às 5:58 
Great. That's all I've been researching. And I love missiles. In pretty much every space-based 4X game I play, missiles are always my go-to. Incredibly disappointing that they're so useless. It seems like a simple fix, too. Hell, our missiles *today* can multi-target.
Nighthaven 26/out./2016 às 6:05 
Escrito originalmente por demonblackie:
Both of us are pretty early in the tech levels, and we're both focused on one type. None of his ships have anything but lasers. Mine are all missiles because that's all I've had the ability to train so far. Neither of us even have the tech for cruisers yet.


Still, Destroyers supposedly kill Corvettes nicely, or was it cruisers ? O-o
Anyway, he has the advantage with lasers simply because by distance alone he'll engage more targets, while your missleboats focus on three targets max,and least one fifth of the missles fired are fired pointlessly when the target blows up and they simply dissapear, by that time, his lasers simply switch target while your boats fire new missles at his boats whom have to fly all the way over first.

only truly usefull missles I been using so far is the torpedo, and just because it ignores shields, they have a slow fire cycle, but they are death to smaller and larger ships alike unless they have pointdefense. the only other advantage of them is that they basically always hit, but ceartain hit against DPS with damage calculated instantly after determining if hit or miss, that amasses a lot of kill potential early on.

But in short, while your first missle hits, and the second travels, and the third is being fired, each of his hits/miss calculations already do or dont deal damage, and by the time you kill three ships, he can kill 5 or more. My Experience anyway, someone might have experienced them differently, I think them more of a support weapon though, not a good starter choice, even if I use them as such too. Honestly though, Lasers or Kinetics are a much better choice earlier on, and AI's i fought that start with missles always pulled the short straw with me using direct fire weapons.
Leyline 26/out./2016 às 6:06 
Your mistake was actually taking torp boats to a fight where there is nothing to torp.



SuperExoticShrub 26/out./2016 às 6:20 
I had read several posts in several different places that said torp boats were good to use in general, not just against static targets. And Nighthaven's post above seems to refute your point, anyways, Leyline.
Última edição por SuperExoticShrub; 26/out./2016 às 6:21
Azunai 26/out./2016 às 6:53 
torpedoes aren't good against corvettes. corvettes have 60+% evasion and torpedoes have 0% Tracking, so more than half of the torpedoes will be dodged by the corvettes.

destroyers don't have a (native) property that makes them good at killing corvettes. that role only develops as you unlock battle computers. the destroyer battle computer comes with a bonus to tracking, so a destroyer is better suited to counter the high evasion.

when you use missiles, that ability is irrelevant anyway, since missiles have 70% tracking and 100% accuracy, so they don't need tracking computer aid to hit corvettes.

small lasers and small mass drivers have 60% tracking, so they basically negate the evation bonus of corvettes. medium weapons usually have 30% tracking which is enough to hit destroyers (and larger) somewhat reliably, but corvettes will dodge some of those shots. large mounts have about 15% tracking, so they are unreliable vs. corvettes and somewhat inaccurate vs. destroyers, but will hit cruisers (or larger) most of the time.

and torpedoes have 0%, so their (impressive) "paper dps" is actually reduced by ~60% in practice when shooting them at corvettes, which makes them worse then a pair of small guns you can mount instead (interceptor corvette hull has 3 small, torpedo boat has 1 small 1 torp).
HugsAndSnuggles 26/out./2016 às 7:06 
Escrito originalmente por Leyline:
Your mistake was actually taking torp boats to a fight where there is nothing to torp.
This. You'd need at least double fleet size to match non-torp corvettes in actual combat perfomance: had a fight of 2.3k projectile corvettes vs 5.7k torp/laser corvettes - similiar losses on both sides with 2.3k fleet destroyed.

Fleet power indicator is not an accurate estimation of battle outcome (mostly because of torps, btw - they add too large bonus while being easily countered). Corvettes are just too agile for torps; you'll only need them when enemy starts mass-produceing cruisers. With spaceports, unless you have dedicted anti-armor guns, torps should put out good enough damage, but hardly worth sacrificing fleet overall combat effectivness.
Leyline 26/out./2016 às 11:27 
Escrito originalmente por demonblackie:
I had read several posts in several different places that said torp boats were good to use in general, not just against static targets. And Nighthaven's post above seems to refute your point, anyways, Leyline.

Well, you are free to believe whatEVER the heck you want to.

It does not change the fact that you are wrong and that the people you are reffering to are wrong.

Exarch_Alpha 26/out./2016 às 11:45 
Escrito originalmente por Azunai:

destroyers don't have a (native) property that makes them good at killing corvettes. that role only develops as you unlock battle computers. the destroyer battle computer comes with a bonus to tracking, so a destroyer is better suited to counter the high evasion.

As long as you keep weapon size Small. If you put weapon size Large they will suck versus corvettes. Period. And that is the point most people get wrong.

Battle computers are secondary. What matters first and foremost is the weapon size you use, THEN computer AND sensors (which also increase tracking).
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Publicado em: 26/out./2016 às 5:24
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