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Why are space ships only armed on the top of their decks?
So, why do space ships mimic design of water-fleets in this regard? Shouldn't their weapons be placed on all sides and bottom of the hull so they can shoot targets below? You know, space is three-dimensional and you could dive under the enemy ship to shoot it from below.
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Mostrando 46-59 de 59 comentarios
xycotta 11 AGO 2021 a las 13:57 
Publicado originalmente por ֺ Casey Black (MEOW!):
Publicado originalmente por xycotta:


Alright, we both have the same style of ships, same weapons and power levels. You do your spinny thing reducing your ability to evade, it takes power to do all that spinny and extra targeting stuff after all. My computer systems don't have to calculate all this spinny stuff. I just line you up and shoot and maintain my thrusters for evasion and not spinny stuff. Since I can position my ship where all weapons are pointed at your ship at the same time it does not matter if some are reloading or recharging.

I am not sure why you think your way would give you more weapons systems or shots.
Again. The spinning doesnt reduce my abllity to meneuvre at all. It merely takes slightly more computation power. Which should be no big deal for a civilisation that can mass produce human-intelligence+ roboters. And once I started spinning, I no longer need to divert power to it. Conservation of angular momentum.
What advantage he spinning does for me is my ability to litter the surface of my craft in all direction, while simultaniously being able to shoot them all at you.


Yeah, see that is where I have to disagree. Explain turning left as you spin. Explain dodging as you spin. You simply would not be able to have enough thrusters to do what you are envisioning without an insane amount of additional power.

Sounds like you are trying to envision every advantage but not have any negatives. Ask an engineer (which I am not), and they will tell you, the more complexity you add, the greater chance of a failure.

Conservation of angular momentum, interesting, what happens to your spin when you get hit by a weapon? As your spinning is based on complex calculations to maximize your weapons. Oh wait, that breaks that law doesn't it? So no, you would have to have continuous changes to your spinning thrusters.

Yet again, per what I said, if you read above, when comparing ships with the same weapon loads, same power, and same style of ship.

You don't have more weapons or more power.



Really, this has gone on too long. I yield to whatever this is.




pipo.p 11 AGO 2021 a las 14:06 
Some thoughts:
Publicado originalmente por xycotta:
-- Starters, space is big, really really big. The shooting would start hundred of miles away most likely depending on weapons.

Publicado originalmente por Ishan451:
Version one: Ship to Ship combat, where both ships are astronomically far apart that it will need a super computer to calculate the "lead" the projectiles need to have, due to the fact that you can detect other vessels over such vast distances of emptiness rather easily, and there is no real physical phenomena, like air resistance or the curvature of a planet that would stand in the way of engaging the enemy as soon as you can detect them. (...) Space is vast and empty... nothing much to hide behind... and as such engagement distances are obsurdly large, if you start with realism.
How non-guided weapons could reach a moving target at those distance scale? If I'm not wrong, the very purpose of ranged weaponry is to deal from afar with (much) slower targets, or at least, with targets that can't change their speed vector that fast.

Wouldn't real engagement range be then vastly inferior to detection range on purpose, so that lasers and kinetic weapons may be fired with reasonable chances to hit their targets, and only if they are seconded by powerful targetting computers?



Publicado originalmente por Ishan451:
Firing missiles or some form of energy weapon, would be detected hours, if not days before they even reach your ship.
But lasers would be detected only when they reach your sensor, except if you have a deported observer and a FTL link to it...

Publicado originalmente por Ishan451:
Counter measures would be taken, and as such ship to ship combat is likely going to be "Shotgun blasts" into a space quadrant, where you assume the enemy is going to be in the future, with highly advanced computers trying to outsmart each others.
Also in the literature, one way to deal with vessels (at large distance) is to crush them with powerful focused shock waves, for example by synchronizing nuclear explosions. The issue is to bring the charges in place unnoticed. Some also invoke a synchronized fire by several shock wave emitters from different directions, This would require some kind of encirclement manoeuver, however, and we are back to the space combat's scale question.



Última edición por pipo.p; 11 AGO 2021 a las 14:07
Maya-Neko 11 AGO 2021 a las 14:50 
Publicado originalmente por xycotta:

Sounds like you are trying to envision every advantage but not have any negatives. Ask an engineer (which I am not), and they will tell you, the more complexity you add, the greater chance of a failure.

Conservation of angular momentum, interesting, what happens to your spin when you get hit by a weapon? As your spinning is based on complex calculations to maximize your weapons. Oh wait, that breaks that law doesn't it? So no, you would have to have continuous changes to your spinning thrusters.

Energywise it's actually better to have spinning parts on a ship. You don't need to rotate the whole ship, You can also just limit the rotation to specific parts and keep the thruster-part static in the middle for example. Take a look at Nexus: The Jupiter incident, where this kind of ships is build. That also causes artificial gravity on the spinning parts, which can be used to reduce the amount of gravity generators and therefore save more energy, especially in non-combat-situations. The biggest problem with this design however is, that it might cause big problems, when the enemy hits crucial parts of the spinning mechanism^^

However there's obviously another big contra about adding more weapons and that's heat generation. If you're adding 4 times the weapons, then you'll also generate 4 times as much heat. Realistically the biggest risk would then not be an enemy attack, but actually killing the crew with the own heat generation (especially in laser weapons). A ship with more weapons would therefore need way more heat capicity (or big radiators, which are then the most vulnurable weak point of your ship, once they're exposed), which makes the ship way heavier and propably bigger, which then causes the ship to be less agile than ships with less weapons. And that's already indirectly modled into the game with ship types of different size and therefore different amount of weapon sizes and maneuverability.

And overall as many already stated (and when we ignore the heat propblem completely or accepting it as an already solved problem): There's no need to have a bigger attack angle, as battles will most likely take place over half of the solar system with lasers. Given that sensors can scan the precise amount and size of ships several systems away, then they should also be able to precisely locate enemys for an attack at that system. You can easily fire a laser and hit a ship 3 million km away without them even seeing it coming. That's also why most rl battleships were build in a way, that they only need to care about one direction, as their range was big enough, that it wasn't necessary to always be able to fire on both sides, as the chance of reaching a battleship before getting sinked was like 0, if it already spotted you 20km away. It was possible to trap ships in RL due to being able to hide behind the horizon or behind land masses, but that's something you definitely won't find in the space, when everybody can just scan the whole system and find you in an instant^^
pipo.p 11 AGO 2021 a las 15:30 
Publicado originalmente por Maya-Neko:
However there's obviously another big contra about adding more weapons and that's heat generation. If you're adding 4 times the weapons, then you'll also generate 4 times as much heat. Realistically the biggest risk would then not be an enemy attack, but actually killing the crew with the own heat generation (especially in laser weapons). A ship with more weapons would therefore need way more heat capicity (or big radiators, which are then the most vulnurable weak point of your ship, once they're exposed), which makes the ship way heavier and propably bigger, which then causes the ship to be less agile than ships with less weapons. And that's already indirectly modled into the game with ship types of different size and therefore different amount of weapon sizes and maneuverability.
Actually, in this discussion between one-sided and arrayed ordinance, you are the first one to invoke heat dissipation as an issue (or any energy dissipation like recoil to be exhaustive, or any reloading/rearming mechanism as far as time is involved).

Perhaps after all, four guns firing together every X hours would deal the same average damage as four guns firing in sequence, each gun firing once every X hours.
In this case, heat dissipation would be the same on the average, but a broadside volley could generate a higher thermal stress if the energy has to be dissipated (or reused) whithin the ship.
Última edición por pipo.p; 11 AGO 2021 a las 15:32
Maya-Neko 11 AGO 2021 a las 16:55 
Publicado originalmente por pipo.p:

Perhaps after all, four guns firing together every X hours would deal the same average damage as four guns firing in sequence, each gun firing once every X hours.
In this case, heat dissipation would be the same on the average, but a broadside volley could generate a higher thermal stress if the energy has to be dissipated (or reused) whithin the ship.

Just because you place all weapons an one side doesn't mean, that you've to fire them all at once. You could easily make a timetable for when specific weapons are allowed to fire to ensure, that the ship can take care of the disadvantages of a fired weapon. But if you put 4 times the weapons on a ship, then you obviously want to also fire them 4 times as often. Otherwise it would just make no sense at all to build them there in the first place (more isn't always better)

And there's always a risk at making things more complex, than it needs to be. It's not just the heat, which makes the rotating ship inferior. You would also need to put hull reinforcements on all sides of your ships instead of just the side, which you expose to the enemy. And you also might expose an obvious weak point to the enemy. And on top of that you've also way more parts to maintain than your enemy, which raises the costs of your ships significantly compared to more simple ship designs.
Ishan451 11 AGO 2021 a las 18:12 
Publicado originalmente por pipo.p:
How non-guided weapons could reach a moving target at those distance scale?

As i said.. shotgun blasts. You divide space into sectors and use predictive algorithems to saturate these sectors in space based on where you believe the enemy will be. Alternatively you use smart projectiles similar to modern naval torpedos that will be lunched into a sector and then use their own onboard sensors to try to home in on the target.

Problem with smart projectiles is again that they probably have to deaccelerate or use a form of propulsion, which you then could again target with point defense systems.

A bunch of metal rods or balls saturating all of space however are very difficult to defend against. Its like flying through a meteor shower.

Publicado originalmente por pipo.p:
If I'm not wrong, the very purpose of ranged weaponry is to deal from afar with (much) slower targets, or at least, with targets that can't change their speed vector that fast.

We are talking about a hypothetical situation with ships that actually have the necessary equipment for interstellar travel. By the time technology advances to that level using predictive algorithms won't be an issue anymore.

Publicado originalmente por pipo.p:
Wouldn't real engagement range be then vastly inferior to detection range on purpose, so that lasers and kinetic weapons may be fired with reasonable chances to hit their targets, and only if they are seconded by powerful targetting computers?

There aren't that many forces in space that do limit engagement range. Matter of fact, as i pointed out, Interstellar combat might actually take months, if you try to hit a stationary object like a space station or a planet, where you can just plug an asteroid out ofthe asteroid belt and calculate a trajectory and send it towards the planet, letting it pick up speed in various gravity wells in the system, before it then will impact with the station or the planet in a quite devasting fashion. Likely entirely undetected to, if we count modern abilities to spot unpowered objects flying towards earth.

Publicado originalmente por pipo.p:
But lasers would be detected only when they reach your sensor, except if you have a deported observer and a FTL link to it...

That depends on what is generating the laser. While true, you couldn't detect the laser itself, you could very well detect the emmitter.

And that i assuming space ships wouldn't deploy counter measures in form of dust clouds, pre-emptively.

So yes, you are of course right, that you couldn't detect light sooner than light arrives at your point, but you are likely to detect the heat and energy build up in advance. If we are talking space ships type of energy beams that deliver enough energy to make it through a ship's hull. Which has to be protected against radiation. So we are talking about massive discharges of energy. (Of course, i do not know what kind of energy we'll have by that time, so maybe there is some energy that could generate such vast quantities of energy without some kind of precharge).

Maybe they could shield it somehow, i don't know, but even then you have the possibility of counter measurements in form of Chaff, which likely would if not entirely stop and disperse the laser, would probably at least lower its intensity into a save margin. After all the ship hall has to withstand solar radiation in the first place.

Your best bet are really kinetic, unpowered projectiles and homing missiles.

Publicado originalmente por pipo.p:
Also in the literature, one way to deal with vessels (at large distance) is to crush them with powerful focused shock waves, for example by synchronizing nuclear explosions.

You need a medium for shockwaves to propagate. A shockwave is compressing matter as it travels through the medium. No matter, no compression that makes molecules vibrate and collide.

https://www.gi.alaska.edu/alaska-science-forum/shock-waves-space

Publicado originalmente por University of Alaska:
It is somewhat paradoxical that the ultimate explosion, the "Big Bang" in which the universe is believed to have been created some 20 billion years ago, could not have produced a shock wave. Although "things" were sent flying in every direction, space was a total vacuum then and there was nothing to compress.

Publicado originalmente por pipo.p:
The issue is to bring the charges in place unnoticed. Some also invoke a synchronized fire by several shock wave emitters from different directions, This would require some kind of encirclement manoeuver, however, and we are back to the space combat's scale question.

Well, as i said... realistic space combat is very, very boring, and fictional shock wave emitters sound awesome :spazdreaming:

And of course, we could also talk space-time shock waves, Which we assume FTL would generate (and thus destroy any system ahead of it), but that is an entirely different subject.
Última edición por Ishan451; 11 AGO 2021 a las 18:20
Катя Мяу <3 11 AGO 2021 a las 21:09 
Publicado originalmente por xycotta:
Publicado originalmente por ֺ Casey Black (MEOW!):
Again. The spinning doesnt reduce my abllity to meneuvre at all. It merely takes slightly more computation power. Which should be no big deal for a civilisation that can mass produce human-intelligence+ roboters. And once I started spinning, I no longer need to divert power to it. Conservation of angular momentum.
What advantage he spinning does for me is my ability to litter the surface of my craft in all direction, while simultaniously being able to shoot them all at you.


Yeah, see that is where I have to disagree. Explain turning left as you spin. Explain dodging as you spin. You simply would not be able to have enough thrusters to do what you are envisioning without an insane amount of additional power.

Sounds like you are trying to envision every advantage but not have any negatives. Ask an engineer (which I am not), and they will tell you, the more complexity you add, the greater chance of a failure.

Conservation of angular momentum, interesting, what happens to your spin when you get hit by a weapon? As your spinning is based on complex calculations to maximize your weapons. Oh wait, that breaks that law doesn't it? So no, you would have to have continuous changes to your spinning thrusters.

Yet again, per what I said, if you read above, when comparing ships with the same weapon loads, same power, and same style of ship.

You don't have more weapons or more power.



Really, this has gone on too long. I yield to whatever this is.
You can make the thruster spin the opposite direction. Making them effectively stationary to an outside observer.
And a "regular" spacecraft will face the same problems associated with recoil from shooting and getting hit. This is not spinning craft exclusive problem.
Última edición por Катя Мяу <3; 11 AGO 2021 a las 21:13
Maya-Neko 11 AGO 2021 a las 23:19 
Publicado originalmente por ֺ Casey Black (MEOW!):
You can make the thruster spin the opposite direction. Making them effectively stationary to an outside observer.
And a "regular" spacecraft will face the same problems associated with recoil from shooting and getting hit. This is not spinning craft exclusive problem.

It's not so much the hit itself, which is a problem, but rather the possibility, that even a slight dislocation of the rotation mechanism might already be able to jam it. And the forces need to unload somewhere at that point. If the mechanism goes from spinning to a full stop in a short time, then it might damage the ship even further. And when the ship survived that, you'll just sit their with a ship, which lost a key element of its combat ability.

A regular ship on the other hand can still reposition itself properly with its full remaining battle strenght, even if it got twisted or if it got holes in it. And yeah, you can luckily hit a critical part of these ships as well, but it's way harder to hit these by accident than by just aiming at obvious weak points.

And after all it's always important to take a step back as an engineer and to evaluate the consequences of your idea. Feature Creep will almost always lead to disadvantages compared to other people, who make it simpler.

mss73055 12 AGO 2021 a las 2:38 
would you prefer topless or bottomless ships?
pipo.p 12 AGO 2021 a las 6:52 
Publicado originalmente por Ishan451:
Publicado originalmente por pipo.p:
Wouldn't real engagement range be then vastly inferior to detection range on purpose, so that lasers and kinetic weapons may be fired with reasonable chances to hit their targets, and only if they are seconded by powerful targetting computers?

There aren't that many forces in space that do limit engagement range.
Against static targets not well "screened" by planetary gravity fields (or obstacles), yes, passive kinetic projectiles could work from afar (because a computer would take into consideraton the gravity field as you says, if not too adverse), but lasers wouldn't so, even with several meters diameter-barrels (as seemingly depicted in the game). There's first a focus issue to generate a small area of highest energy density, and even with a cylindrical beam, there's an internal scattering issue due to the inhomogeneousness of the beam. Both effects depend on the barrel's (lenses') diameter. With a 1 m-diameter barrel, you aren't going to focus energy at inter-orbital distances, and if you double or triple the diameters, it won't do marvels. I know that space combat in Stellaris appears like played at inter-orbital distance or even across a whole system, but actually (and ships are not up to scale anyways), it should be a relatively close range fight. Now, should we use tachyon devices, the limitations I'm talking about would be moot.

Besides, at interplanetary ranges, combat trajectories would include some random evasive measures (making combat speed inferior to cruise speed, among other reasons), that would force the attacker to "paint" a predicted area with a laser beam instead of aiming at a predicted spot, thus decreasing the average energy transferred by day. Back we are to area of effect weapons or a scattered artillery fire.

Matter of fact, as i pointed out, Interstellar combat might actually take months,
And it takes weeks in game already (you can retreat after 30 days in fight).


Likely entirely undetected to, if we count modern abilities to spot unpowered objects flying towards earth.
The game implicitly already considers that the whole system is saturated with remote sensors, monitors, and relays (and that launching such devices is the first thing an hostile fleet does upon entering a system), so let's assume that nothing that can't be destroyed by PD weapons or absorbed by armor, can travel undetected. There could be an (titan) aura, however, with some blinding effects that would decrease the efficiency of such defensive weapons (emulating the destruction of sensors in the area).


Publicado originalmente por pipo.p:
Also in the literature, one way to deal with vessels (at large distance) is to crush them with powerful focused shock waves, for example by synchronizing nuclear explosions.

You need a medium for shockwaves to propagate. A shockwave is compressing matter as it travels through the medium. No matter, no compression that makes molecules vibrate and collide.
I know that, and I wasn't invoking chemicals. A nuclear explosion generates plasma, that is accelerated matter and magnetic field, but I was actually more thinking about the radiative shockwave (air surpressure is replaced by a particular kinetic impulse), the same that occurs when a nova explodes, or to a lesser extent, when a solar storm propagates, or even when the solar wind "meets" with the geomagnetic belt..

I invite you to read some threads on the Paradox forum.
One discusses on combat range.
[EDIT]I just found a mine of useful info here:
Project Rho[www.projectrho.com] that counters what I say, and prefers to see nuclear weapons in space as pure irradiating weapons. There's also a link to another page[www.projectrho.com] about laser cannons in space, that comforts what I says (see also wiki pages about Gaussian beam).
In short, the maximum power output of your laser gun dictates the maximum cross-section of the beam on the target; this in turn is constrained by range (focal distance) and barrel's diameter (actually, focalisation lense's diameter). To give an idea, you can approximate the relation down to:
Diameter_beam x Diameter_barrel = Wavelength x Range
That means a 10 meter-diameter gun can focus a 1-2 meter-diameter beam at 100,000 km. using a 200 nm laser. If you want a narrower beam, you need a larger gun or get closer to the target. Furthermore, once your gun's size fixed, you can't fight at any range: after a certain distance called Rayleigh range, roughly:
zR = (Diameter_beam)^2 / Wavelength
(that's the same order of magnitude as the distance to target if you compare to first approximate formula, so we are know at about twice the range), the beam may be considered as diverging linearly with the distance to the focal point, and more so if the beam's diameter is small. As the beam can't be wider than the gun at its thinest point, this gives you a minimal diverging angle those tangential is proportional to (Diameter_barrel / zR), and that means that at 1,000,000 km, a beam that's 10 m diameter at 100,000 km is already 100 m diameter. Let's recall that Earth-Mars distance varies between 34,000,000 and 228,000,000 km.
[/edit]
Última edición por pipo.p; 13 AGO 2021 a las 6:07
ScreamCon 12 AGO 2021 a las 7:38 
Publicado originalmente por Maya-Neko:
It's not so much the hit itself, which is a problem, but rather the possibility, that even a slight dislocation of the rotation mechanism might already be able to jam it. And the forces need to unload somewhere at that point.
If there was a flaw to the full rotating ball idea, that's probably the flaw that makes a rotating ball idea a stupid one. Not only because you need more computers to offset all the ball movement for the guns, but really if your that far in alloy production, why can't you just fire the guns twice as fast heating the improved alloy'd barrels instead of having more barrels on a ball?

You can't even angle a ball, there's always a point on it that's unangled. And the ball has complex parts increasing the cost of the ship. Meaning that you tried to solve the firepower problem only to increase the ship cost meaning you get less of them falling back into the lack of firepower problem when the enemy is able to bring out 30% more for example. On top of this once the ball jams you have less firepower.

Perhaps what you mean to say is having the guns normally on one side of the ship, but then having ball mounts on each gun. This has been done before on tanks and aircraft.
Última edición por ScreamCon; 12 AGO 2021 a las 8:04
Salami Tsunami 12 AGO 2021 a las 9:09 
Publicado originalmente por ScreamCon:
Publicado originalmente por Maya-Neko:
It's not so much the hit itself, which is a problem, but rather the possibility, that even a slight dislocation of the rotation mechanism might already be able to jam it. And the forces need to unload somewhere at that point.
If there was a flaw to the full rotating ball idea, that's probably the flaw that makes a rotating ball idea a stupid one. Not only because you need more computers to offset all the ball movement for the guns, but really if your that far in alloy production, why can't you just fire the guns twice as fast heating the improved alloy'd barrels instead of having more barrels on a ball?

You can't even angle a ball, there's always a point on it that's unangled. And the ball has complex parts increasing the cost of the ship. Meaning that you tried to solve the firepower problem only to increase the ship cost meaning you get less of them falling back into the lack of firepower problem when the enemy is able to bring out 30% more for example. On top of this once the ball jams you have less firepower.

Perhaps what you mean to say is having the guns normally on one side of the ship, but then having ball mounts on each gun. This has been done before on tanks and aircraft.

For all the nonsense that Star Wars has contributed to space combat...

The Star Destroyer is actually a pretty good space warship in realistic combat.

It's arrowhead shape is near-optimal, rendering extreme angles toward the enemy if engaged from the direct front or sides, great for mitigating incoming kinetic projectiles. It's a sturdy shape, easy to build and fabricate, no structural weak points to be overstressed during maneuvers. Additionally because of its tapering shape, weapons turrets mounted near the edges of the planes of its hull can have a very good field of fire, overlapping to the front, as well as traversing downward on broadside firing so that turrets on the top and bottom surfaces can engage targets on its same vertical plane.

The bridge is obviously a problem, so maybe just sit it down into the main hull of the ship so it's not a giant 'shoot me' sign.

So, line the broadsides with point defense guns. Build a massive series of spinal weapons down its center. Probably railguns, because reasons. And you have a fixed, forward firing main weapon for offense.

Given the distances involved in realistic space combat, there's no reason for turrets at all, when fighting at long range. Fixed angle weapons have the advantage of being built within the hull to better benefit from armor and protection. They can be maintained and operated from the inside of the ship without the need for dangerous exposure to space, or combat hazards. And they can be built far larger, taking up the entire length of the ship. Just keep the front of the ship facing the enemy, and spam railguns until you win. Easy.
Salami Tsunami 12 AGO 2021 a las 9:12 
Publicado originalmente por CBR JGWRR:
Publicado originalmente por Spirit:
play distand worlds universe and the systems moving the orbital bodies (its all 2D but you see it is possible)

I mean much deeper still.

I want the consideration of whether to place a defence satellite at low planetary orbit, or stationary orbit, or in a solar orbit for example; and whether that orbit should be circular or elliptical. And whether inclined relative to the XY plane, or a simple equatorial orbit.

Considering whether to give a ship a Hohmann Transfer order that needs consideration of relevant launch window, or a more Stellaris-like burn to accelerate, coast while turning around, burn to decelerate. I forget what the actual name is right now...

Lagrangian points, possibility of being captured by the gravity of passing moons, all that stuff.

Delta-v shouldn't really be a factor because we're assuming far better propulsion technologies and the game has the player as the leader of the civilisation; a command level of pointing at a map and saying "Go here", with it being the jobs of logistics officers and helmsmen to do all the mathematics involved. The player's decision should be two clicks at most, with setting a basic "equatorial orbit, at this altitude" being a single movement click.

That's when the mathematics gets complicated, but equally it has the most relevance for the player.

You know, rather than a sprawling space empire with hundreds of solar systems, I'd rather play a game where I run a single star system, or even a single planet and orbiting bodies, but at a much greater depth of scale.

I feel like game developers are in an arms race to provide bigger, better thrills. While never really considering that they're sacrificing depth, in favor of size.

I like Stellaris, I really do. But despite how big the galaxy is, it feels so empty once I claim my territory.
Big [REDACTED] Marty 12 AGO 2021 a las 11:09 
Publicado originalmente por mss73055:
would you prefer topless or bottomless ships?
i prefer my ships covered and protected, not bouncing in the breeze
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