Stellaris

Stellaris

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phlux Aug 22, 2021 @ 3:10pm
Early game defense
Hey guys.. i need help.
I had 3 session now where i got absolutly hammered by the AI (on commodore with scaling) during the first 40 years with constant wars. I was kind of unlucky i guess because in every session all of my first 3 neighbours i encountered where hostile and attacked immediately..
I tryed to build up my fleets while expanding but i can't see how strong my neighbours are because of the first contact mechanic.. so i don't know how much i have to invest.

The first two sessions i quit pretty fast because there was no way to defend agains their fleets but in the 3rd session i had 2 pretty good chokepoints. At least that was what i thought.. the first starbase was on 1.8k with an additional 800 fleet and got just destroyed by the enemys 1.2k fleet. The starbase had just 2 fighter bays so i thought ok.. maybe they have point defences or something (no way for me to see that because i had no time to get a spynetwork up)

So i build turret plattforms on the second chokepoint.. same thing, they just trashed it with a fleet that was like half the strength according to the score. And that was just one of the empires.. another one declared war on me at that moment right after the the timeout from the last war was over and that was where i quit the 3rd session.

I'm not really new to the game but i played my last campaign on 2.8. Normally i play xenophob or militaristic empires so i'm used to hostile AIs but i never saw them that agressiv right from the get go and never so strong even with difficulty scaling in the early game.
This time i was fanatic materialist and authoritarian as a technocratic dictatorship and i wanted to try to play more passive and friendly, dig in and get my tech up but man that went horribly wrong.

I know i might got screwed by rng but can someone give me any tips on how to defend myself better in the early game? How to build my chokepoints so they actually can hold back anything and so on? I appreciate any help at this point. These sessions where quite frustrating :D
Last edited by phlux; Aug 22, 2021 @ 3:14pm
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Showing 1-15 of 36 comments
With scaling will mean that they are basically on standard for the first 40 years. (their bonuses will be basically muted).

It could be RNG but there's a ton of variables to consider, don't play too aggressive since if you lose one war it's going to be worse for you in the future.

Research would be pivotal for you, and ignoring unity buildings, you want admin cap but only barely.

Don't focus too much on colonizing after 1 or 2 until you have a secure fleet of about a thousand power. Use that defensively, only want to go offense when you can secure it reasonably safely. Hold on starbases.

Last edited by Lady Crimson (RIP); Aug 22, 2021 @ 3:31pm
khashmoney ..⛟ Aug 22, 2021 @ 6:01pm 
giving your defence platforms small guns increases the likelihood of the enemy ships going into emergency FTL when they are low HP, increasing your chances of winning the battle. point defence doesnt counter small kinetic and energy weapons as effectively as strike craft which could explain why your star bases fell to a 'weaker' fleet when you used strike craft as defence.
EnemigoDeLaMafia Aug 22, 2021 @ 6:02pm 
1) chokepoints.

2) you'll need an armada. For the early game, you'll want at the very least a fleet of 20 corvettes. If you can make it 30, by using some stations as anchorages, then even better.

3) in order to achieve #2 you'll need alloy production. Each metalurgist job will turn 6 minerals into 3 alloys. You only get 1 metalurgist per district on the capital.

*Bonuses apply, and depending on policies you might get a bit more or a bit less.

If you build industrial districts on a world with the "forge world" designation, you'll get 2 jobs per district.

So all this to say: you sre going to want to have around 30 alloys per month, if you can make it 50 per month even better, but reaching 50 would mean you will barely have other resources.

So to get that number of alloys you'll need to have about 10 metalurgists. Remember it's going to be about 60 minerals a month to mantain the jobs.

With 30+ you shouldn't have too much problem building your fleet. The AI is unlikely to attack unless it has more power than you. Even then, if you engage in a station, is likely you'll overcome their fleets.
Maya-Neko Aug 22, 2021 @ 7:36pm 
I normally build starbases with 6 plattforms as fast as possible on chokepoints. That should normally get you to 2,5k-3k. I normally try to mix the platform designs a bit, but point defense shouldn't get to much room, if you don't know, if the enemy even uses it (so normally just one platform with half of it being point defense on a small starbase)

And the most important thing: don't forget to check, if a system has some special features.
If it's a system with deactivated shields, then don't forget to use an alternate loadout for defensive platforms with only hull and lasers (or later on plasma/mining laser)
In systems with low movement speed you could also concentrate more on artillery (but not exclusively, as the corvettes might still close the gap at some point).

But the best defense is obviously befriending with them. So if you've 2 chokepoints against 2 empires, you could for example send an envoy to one of them to strengthen your relationships and then you can concentrate on the starbase on the other side. (doesn't always work though, if both hate you right from the beginning^^)
Spirit Aug 22, 2021 @ 9:06pm 
sounds like your opponents were advanced starting empires
HappySack Aug 22, 2021 @ 10:15pm 
tl:dr sounds like either you're amazing bad at the game or you're a genius and turned on advanced empires.
Sea Base Aug 23, 2021 @ 5:06am 
Originally posted by LegateLanius™:
1) chokepoints.

2) you'll need an armada. For the early game, you'll want at the very least a fleet of 20 corvettes. If you can make it 30, by using some stations as anchorages, then even better.

3) in order to achieve #2 you'll need alloy production. Each metalurgist job will turn 6 minerals into 3 alloys. You only get 1 metalurgist per district on the capital.

*Bonuses apply, and depending on policies you might get a bit more or a bit less.

If you build industrial districts on a world with the "forge world" designation, you'll get 2 jobs per district.

So all this to say: you sre going to want to have around 30 alloys per month, if you can make it 50 per month even better, but reaching 50 would mean you will barely have other resources.

So to get that number of alloys you'll need to have about 10 metalurgists. Remember it's going to be about 60 minerals a month to mantain the jobs.

With 30+ you shouldn't have too much problem building your fleet. The AI is unlikely to attack unless it has more power than you. Even then, if you engage in a station, is likely you'll overcome their fleets.
Pretty much this.

To add on, it doesn't matter how you get to at least 30 alloys per month, just that you do for the build up. A decent idea is to have *one* of your first planets focus on industry generally to meet your Consumer Goods needs as well as Alloys, you can specialise it later when you have a more solid base resource income.

In your choke points you want a Star Base with hangers. The hangers really help with early game combat where it's mostly lots of small ships.

For much the same reason (lots of small ships with high evasion), putting 2 lasers and one kinetic on your corvettes is a decent catch all. Specifically, the lasers have a much higher accuracy than the kinetics, so while not necessarily hard countering what your enemies have, they do hit a lot more early game, thus have a higher actual DPS. Rocket spam can also work but you are at risk of being hard countered by PD.

DO NOT BUILD DEFENCE PLATFORMS!!!!
They are expensive to build, expensive to run, die real quick (they can't just jump away like ships try to do when they take too much damage). If you do want to use them, only use them when you have an abundance of resources and go for fighter bays.
76561198824376715 Aug 23, 2021 @ 8:23am 
KOFF. Yyyyyyyyyep, I second the motion, your honor.

Fortify as all hell on chokepoints, yes.

Favoring of Hangar Bays, yes--- Strike Craft have relatively high damage, high accuracy, bypass shields, and they engage the enemy from afar.

Small disagree regarding Def Platforms.
Yes, very much agreed on all the points raised by Sea Base above.
BUT... this is speaking from experience... I don't use "squadron platforms" in order to definitely hold invaders back. I primarily use them to BLEED them as they come barging in. I couple this, too, with the tactic of UNDERdefending. Like, only using one or two of those on frontier outposts. That makes said frontier outposts irresistible bait for invading fleets to attack. Yes, almost certainly, they will fall... but they will SURELY inflict decent damage and losses on the invading fleets. Decent odds that they either turn back to repair (thus giving you breathing space) or press forward (into more traps, and eventually, your fresh fleet while they are battered and bleeding).

If ya get lucky, an invading force can get too cocky and utterly break itself against a frontier outpost with solid squadron coverage.
But, more realistically--- they blow past several "underdefended" frontier outposts, then your main fleet pounces on them while they're getting stabbed by your squadrons. THEN counterattack while they are reeling.

But, yes, Abu over there also has a good point regarding small guns. Those are better able to target fast movers like starting corvettes. One disadvantage of favoring squadron-style defense is that you have to wait for them to fully deploy one by one.

Regarding corvette builds, especially in the early-game stage... if working with the standard 20/20 base fleet size... I usually use two corvette designs.
>10 picket-style fighters, armed with Sentinel lasers, plus one kinetic, one energy (at first just the mass driver/red laser... but once the tech becomes available, go for autocannon+plasma OR mining lasers). THAT way, whether raiding/invading the enemy or defending against incoming foes, especially missileboats, they can have decent defense against incoming missiles.
>10 missileboats. Secondary weapon system is yes, agreed, should be lasers as they have better accuracy but eventually, fook yeah for autocannons when you get them. Type of missile doesn't matter too much as long as ya got em, but eventually fook yeah for torpedoes. Bypass shields, homing, work well against either armor or hull, what's not to love? Plus, once y'all are already engaged in a furball, that makes it more difficult for enemy PD to swat down your missiles.

Maya-Neko Aug 23, 2021 @ 8:52am 
Originally posted by Sea Base:
DO NOT BUILD DEFENCE PLATFORMS!!!!
They are expensive to build, expensive to run, die real quick (they can't just jump away like ships try to do when they take too much damage). If you do want to use them, only use them when you have an abundance of resources and go for fighter bays.

It's not just about defending things, but actually about looking strong. The AI won't jump into a system with a 1,5k-fleet, if there's a 3k-starbase waiting for them even if it would win mathematically. And it's way easier to build up fleet power early on with starbases than you're able to do it with fleet, especially when you've like 3 or more choke points. That might be expensive, but it can definitely hold your front lines until the late midgame without ever building big fleets. Their biggest weakness in that case is just the time they need to be build.
Jack Niggleson Aug 23, 2021 @ 12:58pm 
Originally posted by phlux:
Hey guys.. i need help.
I had 3 session now where i got absolutly hammered by the AI (on commodore with scaling) during the first 40 years with constant wars. I was kind of unlucky i guess because in every session all of my first 3 neighbours i encountered where hostile and attacked immediately..
I tryed to build up my fleets while expanding but i can't see how strong my neighbours are because of the first contact mechanic.. so i don't know how much i have to invest.

The first two sessions i quit pretty fast because there was no way to defend agains their fleets but in the 3rd session i had 2 pretty good chokepoints. At least that was what i thought.. the first starbase was on 1.8k with an additional 800 fleet and got just destroyed by the enemys 1.2k fleet. The starbase had just 2 fighter bays so i thought ok.. maybe they have point defences or something (no way for me to see that because i had no time to get a spynetwork up)

So i build turret plattforms on the second chokepoint.. same thing, they just trashed it with a fleet that was like half the strength according to the score. And that was just one of the empires.. another one declared war on me at that moment right after the the timeout from the last war was over and that was where i quit the 3rd session.

I'm not really new to the game but i played my last campaign on 2.8. Normally i play xenophob or militaristic empires so i'm used to hostile AIs but i never saw them that agressiv right from the get go and never so strong even with difficulty scaling in the early game.
This time i was fanatic materialist and authoritarian as a technocratic dictatorship and i wanted to try to play more passive and friendly, dig in and get my tech up but man that went horribly wrong.

I know i might got screwed by rng but can someone give me any tips on how to defend myself better in the early game? How to build my chokepoints so they actually can hold back anything and so on? I appreciate any help at this point. These sessions where quite frustrating :D

You can't rely on stations to defend anything by themselves. Their fleet power isn't an accurate representation of their effectiveness against enemy fleets. They're mostly there to stop very weak enemy fleets from slipping in and to suppress piracy score.

As far as how to actually win, what are you building? Your early game fleets should be disposable missile corvettes (eventually replaced with cruiser carriers and finally with battleship carriers). Also generally, even as a xenophobe/militarist, I try to maintain peace in early game as long as possible and don't even start building ships until I have a solid lead in tech over my immediate neighbors.
Last edited by Jack Niggleson; Aug 23, 2021 @ 1:00pm
ScreamCon Aug 23, 2021 @ 1:11pm 
You want to go over your fleet cap and have high alloy production. Basically their is no limit to how many units you can stack over your fleet capacity other then the penalty. The ai will go over and I do in my play through as well to match with ai.

Really it comes down to the ratio of districts.

You need city district as you need the building slots, you need the industrial districts as you need the alloy and good making pop jobs, you need mining districts to feed the industrial districts, and energy districts to fund more sheer fleet cost,district cost, and going over fleet cap.

Basically if you couldn't care less for research which is another angle you need to think of, the two needed resources are energy and alloy. When you scale your fleet past the max they will eat more energy and alloy. If your at the point where you used up your fleet cap lets say to the point where all ships use x2 as much resource, you will have a strong enough fleet for the ai... normally.

Use atleast 1 research lab and 1 stronghold per world. Ensuring fleet cap and research competitiveness, go over that if your building slots allow. Try to maintain a higher ratio of resource district to city and industrial district. Building slots are less useful if your world cant even produce the resource its needs for the cost of the extra afforded research lab for example.

The secret ingredient is not letting the perfectionist part of mind worry about locked building slots, you will unlock them with time with research district efficiency, and the resources here and now are needed. "A dead man can't use future building slots."

You want to expand your world count, more worlds mean more districts to scale over research.

This method has been working for me.
Last edited by ScreamCon; Aug 23, 2021 @ 1:29pm
yuzhonglu Aug 23, 2021 @ 2:28pm 
Skip the energy entirely and just focus on minerals for alloys and consumer goods.
yuzhonglu Aug 23, 2021 @ 2:29pm 
Originally posted by Jack Niggleson:
Originally posted by phlux:
Hey guys.. i need help.
I had 3 session now where i got absolutly hammered by the AI (on commodore with scaling) during the first 40 years with constant wars. I was kind of unlucky i guess because in every session all of my first 3 neighbours i encountered where hostile and attacked immediately..
I tryed to build up my fleets while expanding but i can't see how strong my neighbours are because of the first contact mechanic.. so i don't know how much i have to invest.

The first two sessions i quit pretty fast because there was no way to defend agains their fleets but in the 3rd session i had 2 pretty good chokepoints. At least that was what i thought.. the first starbase was on 1.8k with an additional 800 fleet and got just destroyed by the enemys 1.2k fleet. The starbase had just 2 fighter bays so i thought ok.. maybe they have point defences or something (no way for me to see that because i had no time to get a spynetwork up)

So i build turret plattforms on the second chokepoint.. same thing, they just trashed it with a fleet that was like half the strength according to the score. And that was just one of the empires.. another one declared war on me at that moment right after the the timeout from the last war was over and that was where i quit the 3rd session.

I'm not really new to the game but i played my last campaign on 2.8. Normally i play xenophob or militaristic empires so i'm used to hostile AIs but i never saw them that agressiv right from the get go and never so strong even with difficulty scaling in the early game.
This time i was fanatic materialist and authoritarian as a technocratic dictatorship and i wanted to try to play more passive and friendly, dig in and get my tech up but man that went horribly wrong.

I know i might got screwed by rng but can someone give me any tips on how to defend myself better in the early game? How to build my chokepoints so they actually can hold back anything and so on? I appreciate any help at this point. These sessions where quite frustrating :D

You can't rely on stations to defend anything by themselves. Their fleet power isn't an accurate representation of their effectiveness against enemy fleets. They're mostly there to stop very weak enemy fleets from slipping in and to suppress piracy score.

As far as how to actually win, what are you building? Your early game fleets should be disposable missile corvettes (eventually replaced with cruiser carriers and finally with battleship carriers). Also generally, even as a xenophobe/militarist, I try to maintain peace in early game as long as possible and don't even start building ships until I have a solid lead in tech over my immediate neighbors.

Later on you need to mass neutron launchers. Beats everything else. Proton launcher cruisers wreck carriers.
ScreamCon Aug 23, 2021 @ 2:31pm 
Dude, stop preaching the no energy strategy, the guy needs the defence from his ships, energy deficit makes you look weak to the ai. You only have a fourth the strength. And when they attack you end up having to waste selling your base resources. Not only that you will get pulled into more wars busting the ships.

He's talking about early game not mid or late game.
Its not even how your suppose to play the game. You can't buy resources at cheap price if you have no energy. You want to wait for the aliens to be desperate selling resources so you can get good deal on them.

So yes, the energy districts are in fact useful even if maintaining ships to the same strength. Late game you can even opt to have fewer of them due to higher job efficiency if a player prefers to have more alloy or mining districts. No need for excessive alloy production feralness when the city districts can be cut instead for extra base resource industry.
Last edited by ScreamCon; Aug 23, 2021 @ 3:03pm
Originally posted by ScreamCon:
Dude, stop preaching the no energy strategy, the guy needs the defence from his ships, energy deficit makes you look weak to the ai. You only have a fourth the strength. And when they attack you end up having to waste selling your base resources. Not only that you will get pulled into more wars busting the ships.

He's talking about early game not mid or late game.
Its not even how your suppose to play the game. You can't buy resources at cheap price if you have no energy. You want to wait for the aliens to be desperate selling resources so you can get good deal on them.

So yes, the energy districts are in fact useful even if maintaining ships to the same strength. Late game you can even opt to have fewer of them due to higher job efficiency if a player prefers to have more alloy or mining districts. No need for excessive alloy production feralness when the city districts can be cut instead for extra base resource industry.


I would even go so far as to say Energy is now better than ever, and you can use it to buy out nearly any resource. Since now you can have energy at +50% all jobs with an edict.

Energy hasn't been better. It was bad before when food was 6 and energy was 4 base. Now both are 6 meaning just mineral is short changed.
Last edited by Lady Crimson (RIP); Aug 23, 2021 @ 3:47pm
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Date Posted: Aug 22, 2021 @ 3:10pm
Posts: 36