Technocracy: Is It Still Worth It?

[TwoTonTuna]

+1 consumer good consumption per researcher. Does this nerf mean that any benefits gained from stacking researchers are offset by the increased need for artisans?

At what point is it just better to swap out Technocracy, get administrators and culture workers, than to trade 1 consumer good for 1 unity?

[MP]

Uh. You get ahead in tech sooner than usual? I'd say that's a pretty big boon in itself. That includes improvements to consumer goods production.

[Heimdall313]

Tech rush is always the meta, the +1 CG and restricted availability of CG trade policy to Megacorps/Merchant Guilds is a small bother at best.

[TwoTonTuna]

Originally posted by MihaP:

Uh. You get ahead in tech sooner than usual? I'd say that's a pretty big boon in itself. That includes improvements to consumer goods production.

Originally posted by Heimdall313:

Tech rush is always the meta, the +1 CG and restricted availability of CG trade policy to Megacorps/Merchant Guilds is a small bother at best.

I was thinking more in the mid and late game, where you have a crapton of researchers each consuming +1 CG each.

If you have 100 researchers, that means you need 100 more consumer goods to produce 100 unity. That means around 9-10 artisans (+8 CG with the buildings, +20% from technologies, stability bonuses) are supplying the 100 CG that technocracy researchers use to produce 100 unity

One culture worker produces base 8 unity. I need 12.5 (rounded to 13) CW's to produce 100 unity. They in turn will require two CG each, so that's a total of 26 CG. That's 2.5 (rounded to three) late-game artisans plus twelve-thirteen culture workers to produce 100 unity.

Thirteen culture workers and three artisans to produce 100 unity without technocracy. With technocracy, 100 researchers will need around 9-10 artisans to cover the extra costs attached to unity generation.

I basically answered my own question: yes, technocracy is still worth it.

[Mati_Lublin]

Technocracy alone is not OP anymore, but it doesn't mean it's bad, especially that you can have means to bypass the issue: mechanist origin and masterful crafters.

[Ryika]

Still seems really good if the goal is to maximize science.

Just combine it with spamming Merchants everywhere (ideally with Merchant Guilds), which you'll want to be doing anyway right now, and the Upkeep is manageable. It's quite a high price, but rushing quicker towards some mid-game goal earlier is worth a lot, too.

[TwoTonTuna]

Originally posted by Ryika:

Still seems really good if the goal is to maximize science.

Just combine it with spamming Merchants everywhere (ideally with Merchant Guilds), which you'll want to be doing anyway right now, and the Upkeep is manageable. It's quite a high price, but rushing quicker towards some mid-game goal earlier is worth a lot, too.

You can't have Merchant Guilds and Technocracy at the same time.

I'm playing a game right now, pairing Technocracy with Masterful Crafters. The +1 consumer goods does a lot to compensate for the increased CG upkeep of Technocracy. The trade value I don't care much for, while the +1 engineering is a good boost. I topped it off with Meritocracy for even more science and consumer goods.

I definitely feel the increased need for CG, assigning more artisans/artificers than I usually do. As a result, I feel squeezed for minerals while not producing as much alloys as I would like.

However, Technocracy still feels pretty good as long as I don't get caught up in a war. If playing in multiplayer or with aggressive AI mods though, I definitely feel that Technocracy's increased CG upkeep will limit their ability to sustain prolonged military campaigns.

[Ryika]

Originally posted by Kodesh:

You can't have Merchant Guilds and Technocracy at the same time.

True, that was a brainfart. Would be pretty awesome though.

However, Merchant Guilds is not required for the strategy, it just boosts Unity, which Technocracy Scientists also do to a lesser extend. Merchants on their own are already extremely powerful.

Voiddwellers + Technocracy + Functional Infrastructure allows you to spam Merchants and Scientists for an absurd amount of early research.

The main problem is that you really can't run the Unity Trade Conversion because you need so many freaking Consumer Goods. But then again, you still produce enough unity to get your second tradition tree (Supremacy) for whatever rush timing you're going for. Or if you plan to play peacefully, a Trade Guild will also fix the problem.

[lubed_assassin]

Originally posted by Kodesh:

Originally posted by MihaP:

Uh. You get ahead in tech sooner than usual? I'd say that's a pretty big boon in itself. That includes improvements to consumer goods production.

Originally posted by Heimdall313:

Tech rush is always the meta, the +1 CG and restricted availability of CG trade policy to Megacorps/Merchant Guilds is a small bother at best.

I was thinking more in the mid and late game, where you have a crapton of researchers each consuming +1 CG each.

If you have 100 researchers, that means you need 100 more consumer goods to produce 100 unity. That means around 9-10 artisans (+8 CG with the buildings, +20% from technologies, stability bonuses) are supplying the 100 CG that technocracy researchers use to produce 100 unity

One culture worker produces base 8 unity. I need 12.5 (rounded to 13) CW's to produce 100 unity. They in turn will require two CG each, so that's a total of 26 CG. That's 2.5 (rounded to three) late-game artisans plus twelve-thirteen culture workers to produce 100 unity.

Thirteen culture workers and three artisans to produce 100 unity without technocracy. With technocracy, 100 researchers will need around 9-10 artisans to cover the extra costs attached to unity generation.

I basically answered my own question: yes, technocracy is still worth it.

honestly merchant spam is better for cg now. It takes a bit more micro though, basically u get the merchants from mercantile and fill up the building slots with commerce centers. Then move the clerks to do research on another planet. It also helps grow your population on that planet from excess housing.

I wouldn't bother with CG factories now unless I had an eccu and switched to artisans and had like 500 on one planet... That planet would be a beast at that point :P.

[Ramonkey]

Merchant guilds is better now

[lubed_assassin]

Originally posted by Ramonkey:

Merchant guilds is better now

plus it seems like commercial pacts were overhauled... it seems i get 10% of my own trade value now, so a commercial pact is wort like 50-60 energy a month and there only getting 2 energy ^_^

[coolman552]

boons
you get neww tech faster
negatives
you have to play as a m*terialist 🤢

[TwoTonTuna]

Originally posted by lubed_assassin:

honestly merchant spam is better for cg now. It takes a bit more micro though, basically u get the merchants from mercantile and fill up the building slots with commerce centers. Then move the clerks to do research on another planet. It also helps grow your population on that planet from excess housing.

I wouldn't bother with CG factories now unless I had an eccu and switched to artisans and had like 500 on one planet... That planet would be a beast at that point :P.

Merchants produce base 12 trade and 5 amenities for nothing. That means 3 consumer goods and 6 energy if on consumer benefits (+3 unity if trade league).

Artisans produce base 6 CG for 6 minerals, or 8 CG for 8 minerals with civilian repli-complexes. With Masterful Crafters, they get +1 CG, +2 trade (or 1 energy + 0.5 CG), and 1 engineering. That means a total of 9.5CG, 1 energy, and 1 engineering per artificer... and that's not even factoring bonuses to job output and the +20% from technology bonuses.

Also, you get two artisans/artificers with each industrial district.

Merchants are definitely better economy-wise, as they produce energy and CG without eating up minerals. They also give unity if you can form a trade league. However, you can only have so many merchants at one time.

Each merchant needs a commercial zone or trade district. This consumes a building slot/habitat district, and you only have a limited number of colonies in the early/mid-game. And then there's how Merchant Guilds is incompatible with Technocracy.

tl;dr, merchants are nice if you have a lot of free building slots that you're not using. with technocracy though, you'll still need artisans/artificers to cover the increased CG costs of each researcher.

[Ryika]

Originally posted by Kodesh:

and that's not even factoring bonuses to job output and the +20% from technology bonuses.

Sure, and Merchants gain +25% from Thrifty, +20% from the City Specialization, +X% from the Happiness they add to a planet through their Amenities, plus 2 * 10% = 20% from Mercantile Traditions.

Plus, in case you pick up any Commercial Pacts, they indirectly boost your income even further.

Originally posted by Kodesh:

tl;dr, merchants are nice if you have a lot of free building slots that you're not using. with technocracy though, you'll still need artisans/artificers to cover the increased CG costs of each researcher.

Not in an optimized build.

You want to add Voiddwellers and Functional Architecture, and you'll have building slots for days, which means you'll have a TON of merchants, and more than enough consumer goods to fund your researchers. With good optimization, you can literally replace every single worker job and run entirely on Administrators, Merchants and Scientists (and later Metallurgists), and pretty consistently achieve ~500 research in year 10 (TEN).

As I understand it, this is likely a bit weaker than alternative builds that don't make use of Technocracy, but it is most definitely miles above anything that I've seen attempt to do similar things with Technocracy, while not abusing the hell out of Merchants. Merchant Builds are very tightly built around that Voiddweller + Functional Architecture combo, but in that combination they're just immensely strong right now.

[Lady Crimson (RIP)]

Yeah Master Crafters is now tailor built for technocracy. You need more consumer goods, they benefit from more consumer good makers.

That was my first reaction, and I'm glad they're toning technocracy down a bit from how broken science is. (and it still is a good pick since 1 unity is worth more than 1 consumer good early game).

[TwoTonTuna]

Originally posted by Ryika:

Originally posted by Kodesh:

and that's not even factoring bonuses to job output and the +20% from technology bonuses.

Sure, and Merchants gain +25% from Thrifty, +20% from the City Specialization, +X% from the Happiness they add to a planet through their Amenities, plus 2 * 10% = 20% from Mercantile Traditions.

Plus, in case you pick up any Commercial Pacts, they indirectly boost your income even further.

Originally posted by Kodesh:

tl;dr, merchants are nice if you have a lot of free building slots that you're not using. with technocracy though, you'll still need artisans/artificers to cover the increased CG costs of each researcher.

Not in an optimized build.

You want to add Voiddwellers and Functional Architecture, and you'll have building slots for days, which means you'll have a TON of merchants, and more than enough consumer goods to fund your researchers. With good optimization, you can literally replace every single worker job and run entirely on Administrators, Merchants and Scientists (and later Metallurgists), and pretty consistently achieve ~500 research in year 10 (TEN).

As I understand it, this is likely a bit weaker than alternative builds that don't make use of Technocracy, but it is most definitely miles above anything that I've seen attempt to do similar things with Technocracy, while not abusing the hell out of Merchants. Merchant Builds are very tightly built around that Voiddweller + Functional Architecture combo, but in that combination they're just immensely strong right now.

Hmm. I'll give Void Dwellers + Functional Architecture + Technocracy a try later on. 500 tech at year 10 sounds juicy, and I can just compare it to my current Mechanist + Technocracy + Masterful Crafters run.

Yes, I know Mechanist is a meme origin, but I kinda like it for some weird reason.