when you find a relic world, should you restore it as soon as possible?

[bozz5674]

Make it into an ecmenuonpls\

[mss73055]

If you start with an Ecumenopolis origin it's 100%, because it's your homeworld.
General 80% is fine, because you still can get it to 100%. And it's more than your colonies, what start at 70%.

[CrUsHeR]

Originally posted by mss73055:

If you start with an Ecumenopolis origin it's 100%, because it's your homeworld.
General 80% is fine, because you still can get it to 100%. And it's more than your colonies, what start at 70%.

But do the habitability increasing techs really work on a relic world?

I had just observed an AI player who got his Rubricator world settled at some point near 2300 (after i killed Shard for him), and he still got the -10% pop growth penalty from habitability some decades later.

So it seems more like it was capped at 80%, assuming he had all the basic habitability tech at this point.

[AurumHawke]

Restoring a Relic world into an Ecumenopolis always feels like a downgrade because you lose the 8 research jobs from the control spire feature.
The C.A.R.E. Relic is also excellent for Technicians as a side-specialization.
Since the Relic Origin doesn't have that feature, that one's fine to restore.

Might be worth upgrading when replacing a research-Relic for a (proper/restored) Ring World, but that still doesn't quite have the raw output-per-pop boost of a research-Relic.

[CrUsHeR]

Originally posted by AurumHawke:

Restoring a Relic world into an Ecumenopolis always feels like a downgrade because you lose the 8 research jobs from the control spire feature.
The C.A.R.E. Relic is also excellent for Technicians as a side-specialization.
Since the Relic Origin doesn't have that feature, that one's fine to restore.

Might be worth upgrading when replacing a research-Relic for a (proper/restored) Ring World, but that still doesn't quite have the raw output-per-pop boost of a research-Relic.

As pointed out above, in the Relic world you lose at least 6 researcher jobs from having e.g. a holo-theatre instead of another research lab. So in reality, you have at most 2 more researcher jobs. And a single upgraded holo-theatres likely isn't giving enough amenities for a colony with nothing else on it (like not having merchants or clerks), then the ecumenopolis with its leisure arcologies wins by a mile.

Then there is the lack of the 50% pop growth bonus, and apparently you get a -10% penalty due to the capped 80% habitability instead. This is not just "some bonus" you are losing, but the most substantial growth bonus in the game.

Of course the ecumenopolis always has all build slots unlocked even without a single residential district. Though why not have those, if you can create a near-infinite immigration pull from some hundred-ish free housing and vacant jobs.

Then gradually replace them with more and more foundry arcologies while the planet is filling up. And with "filling up" we are talking 150, 200, or 250 pops upwards.



There is little point in arguing for not upgrading it, unless for roleplay nostalgia or misunderstanding of game mechanics.



What i also don't quite understand, is the fixation about researching on the relic world.
You can always drop research labs on every free building slot which isn't taken by a refinery. If you don't do that, you are losing out much more.
And of course there are other options like habitats, ring worlds and plenty planets with random buffs and features, like +25% society research on a titanic life planet.

The real issue is always producing alloys in an efficient production chain. Which means mining planets must be designated as such for the 20% minerals bonus. And which place is better to create large amounts of metallurgist jobs and runs them most efficiently? Correct, the Ecumenopolis.

And yes you can also have 4-8 or so research labs on your foundry ecumenopolis, they still get the 30% research bonus. Though if you are hell bent of ONLY researching there, likewise there is no better place. Literally no better place.



Lastly, why you shouldn't focus on using the Relic World as your "research world" - the way how the game works, you need a HUGE amount of research, as early as possible. Because research leads into an exponentially growing advantage; i.e. the earlier and the faster you research, the more you increase all your capabilities, including more efficient research.

And you don't get there with designating one planet for research, you need to do this on several planets at the same time. The concept of this one relic world with max per-pop output just isn't working.

Meanwhile alloys are mostly needed in huge amounts much later in the game, when you need to produce battleship/titan fleets for ~35k alloys per click and megastructures costing even more.

[AurumHawke]

Relic Worlds do not have a habitability cap - they have a planet-class modifier of +80% and are not referenced in the habitability preference trait.
A Nonadaptive -10% species at max habitability tech's +20%, Adaptability Traditions' +10%, Galactic Community resolutions "Integrated Gardens" giving +5% and "Building a Better Tomorrow" giving -10%, has 95% habitability on a Relic World.
This same species has 35% habitability on a standard non-suitable planet.

Tracked down all the in-play habitability modifiers, the 95% for Nonadaptive makes sense now.

[CrUsHeR]

Yeah, whatever. I saw a relic world past 2300 with the -10% pop growth applied, today. Can't see the AI empire's technologies though.

Since the post above was already too long for most people's attention span, i am just going to explain how research works, and why the +30% bonus on your relic world is not as great as you think.



1) Species:

Intelligent and Natural Engineers. All pops working in research now generate 25% more engineering research points. Seems like the +30% bonus from the relic world is somewhat relativized. If you also add something like Psionic, Erudite, or the 10-25% bonus from synth production, it gets less and less interesting.

2) Research technologies:

There are three technologies for every tech branch, each giving +20% research output.
So with the previous pop production bonuses, we are already looking at up to 95% bonus output. Well now the +30% relic world bonus isn't all that great anymore, if you could instead have simply more planets, or alternatives in form of habitats, rare planetary features etc.

3) Research Speed:

Lastly there are the multiplicative research speed bonuses, which all stack and are applied after the research points have been generated. Materialist ethos, Discovery traditions, Research Agreement and -Cooperative, Scientist traits like Genius or Industry Expert, and so on.
How many of these you can stack varies a lot, so a seemingly small research output can still complete long projects quickly, and vice versa.



Now in comparison how far you can boost your alloy production - since you are using the relic world for research:

1) Species:

Synths get a base 10%, you can add another 5% from robo-modding, or go for synthetic ascension with a total of 25% to all resources. And that is it.

2) Production technologies:

There are two tiers for a passive alloy production boost, each giving 10%.

3) Production.. speed?

Well, you can shift your production focus to military, to produce 25% more alloys at the cost of 25% less consumer goods. There also is an edict for 10% bonus alloys, though there are other competitors for this slot (e.g. 50% bonus minerals or energy).
To my knowledge these are all additive with the output bonuses, so no multiplicative magic like you get with research speed.


Then just do the math based on your current bonuses ingame, which one is more effective - a 30% alloy bonus or a 30% researcher output bonus.
Bottom line, you are wasting the relic world by not upgrading it.

[AurumHawke]

The fixation for research and alloys works both ways for exactly the same reasons.
The exceptions are Gestalts - with the exception of Rogue Servitor which actually produces Consumer Goods - which are incapable of restoring a Relic World and producing Ecumenopoli.
For them, a Ring World is the most condensed Alloy production at 10 unsplit jobs per district and the 5% output designation.

Foundry Arcologies condense districts at 3:1, with cost and upkeep partially moved into Motes.
The most impactful output modifiers are the flat bonus ones because percentage bonuses multiply base output.

[AurumHawke]

Found a heuristic block on the restore decision caused by the trauma of discovering the Central Control Spire feature goes missing.
Missing data to resolve block: Ecumenopolis planet-class provides +20% all-job output.
That's double any of the competing terraform-perk options.
Combined with Former Relic World's +10% research output, this means all +30% of the former Relic World's research modifier is still present.

The 8 researcher jobs still go missing - and it is actually feasible to fill the Relic with entirely research buildings, given the point where you can build the 6-job buildings you should also have the capital upgrades, or close-to.
That "freed-up" building slot goes to an Alloy and/or Consumer Goods building anyways.
Unlike terraforming, it's a decision so it delays/is-delayed according to the build queue but can be shuffled.

Heuristic block removed - restore it whenever you have the resources and have its other needs covered.

[Certitude]

Originally posted by AurumHawke:

The fixation for research and alloys works both ways for exactly the same reasons.
The exceptions are Gestalts - with the exception of Rogue Servitor which actually produces Consumer Goods - which are incapable of restoring a Relic World and producing Ecumenopoli.
For them, a Ring World is the most condensed Alloy production at 10 unsplit jobs per district and the 5% output designation.

Foundry Arcologies condense districts at 3:1, with cost and upkeep partially moved into Motes.
The most impactful output modifiers are the flat bonus ones because percentage bonuses multiply base output.

I hope this is good news to you: # Synthetic Dawn

* Rogue Servitors can now take the Arcology Project Ascension Perk and restore Relic Worlds to Ecumenopolises.
* Ecumenopolises owned by Rogue Servitors have Sanctuary Arcologies, capable of housing Bio-Trophies.
Source: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/stellaris-dev-diary-223-release-date-and-patch-notes-for-the-3-1-lem-update.1489290/

[mss73055]

I've found Fen Habbanis with curses on is. I was surprised to see a 60% relic world, but on inspection it shows both an asteroid crater and severe storms. These curses remained after the ecumenopolis was restored.

[CrUsHeR]

Originally posted by mss73055:

I've found Fen Habbanis with curses on is. I was surprised to see a 60% relic world, but on inspection it shows both an asteroid crater and severe storms. These curses remained after the ecumenopolis was restored.

Yep this was probably introduced in one of the recent major updates. Basically it says "go for synth ascension or get lost".

Originally posted by AurumHawke:

Found a heuristic block on the restore decision caused by the trauma of discovering the Central Control Spire feature goes missing.
Missing data to resolve block: Ecumenopolis planet-class provides +20% all-job output.
That's double any of the competing terraform-perk options.
Combined with Former Relic World's +10% research output, this means all +30% of the former Relic World's research modifier is still present.

The 8 researcher jobs still go missing - and it is actually feasible to fill the Relic with entirely research buildings, given the point where you can build the 6-job buildings you should also have the capital upgrades, or close-to.
That "freed-up" building slot goes to an Alloy and/or Consumer Goods building anyways.
Unlike terraforming, it's a decision so it delays/is-delayed according to the build queue but can be shuffled.

Heuristic block removed - restore it whenever you have the resources and have its other needs covered.

Yeah i think we've already explained the 30% bonus being replaced in a much better version ;)

The 10 years upgrade is indeed very long for a single build order, which is also why i focus on building up those 6-10 urban districts and adding even more jobs to last those 10 years.

Then again, 10 years are not THAT long, for example the nomination period for the galactic market lasts 5 years already.

As mentioned the largest obstacle is always discovering the anti-gravity engineering tech, so you mostly have plenty of time to prepare the planet for the upgrade.

[mss73055]

The starter zones suit the game start nicely. 8 research jobs for 2k energy is a fine deal. Then you get at least 6 mineral fields and 6 generator fields. Sometimes up to 12.
I'm in no hurry to "upgrade" these worlds.

[Col. Cornbread]

for me it depends. some of the relic worlds have a deposit that have several of the rare material deposits and if i'm not breaking even on them then i'll keep the plane the way it is just to harvest said materials.