Starbase value means nothing?

[Fancore]

greetings folks,

as i'm relatively new too stellaris i thought i'd play a more defensive game, build up some starbases that can defend incoming attacks and all that.
which seems too work perfectly well... once my oponent took hold of my star fortress....

long story short. on my southern side is an empire that likes too take over terratory. sure no big deal i made a nice defensive star fortress with about 13k points (whatever they are) and had a fleet of about 3~4k stationed there.

this should in theory deal with my opponents 16k combined fleet.

yet once they entered my system, they not only destroyed my fleet before my fleet could reach them (terrible ai too engage and not lure)
it also destroyed the star fortress without even losing any units/power.

so too that i'm like <,< the fk? whats the point of a fortress if it cant even weaken my opponents forces at the very least.
now i got too play cat and mouse and try and snipe off some of his straggler units that go a system too far.

so am i building the fortress incorrectly? is there something specific i need too make it "strong" defensively? or are they simply not worth using as defenses?

would love too know.

[Ryika]

Starbases have a lot of HP but don't deal a lot of damage by themselves. That means, they'll be around for a long time, but not destroy a lot of ships, and as a result not actually live up to the strength that's shown int he UI.

A more balanced setup (aka, just about any fleet) will easily deal with a starbase of equal power, the way attack and defense are distributed just isn't very efficient. As such, you can say that the value shown in the UI is very much inflated, because it just counts the amount of "points", but does not account for how balanced they are distributed.

This is true for ships as well, power values should always just be seen as an approximation of what you can expect - and for starbases, that's five times as true.

You can boost a starbase's damage output by adding defensive platforms and that will push the overall efficiency of the starbase towards a more balanced setup, but even then, if the enemy fleet is big enough, it will just pick them off and then be in the same situation.

Overall, starbases are utilities, generally you don't want to rely only on them to defend you.

[Fancore]

then would you be so kind as too tell me what i can do too make defenses? just have big fleets around?

(also that starbase had 6 defense platforms)

[Xeonzs]

Numbers are very rough estimates.

The only take into account raw health, dmg and rate of fire.

For example torpedos massively increases a corvettes fleet power rating, but it's rof and movement speed is slow, it's very likely to be shot down by point defenss or fighters.

Another example, even if you research a lot of shield tech and focus on that, then when the enemy fleet consists of missiles you're in a tough spot cause missile weapons ignore shields.

A missile fleet might show it has 20k fleet power, but when it's facing a fleet of 12k of which each ship has at least 1-2pd the fleet power of the missile fleet is more like 2k, they'll lose cause their weapons aren't effective.

[pete3great]

Originally posted by Ryika:

Starbases have a lot of HP but don't deal a lot of damage by themselves. That means, they'll be around for a long time, but not destroy a lot of ships, and as a result not actually live up to the strength that's shown int he UI.

A more balanced setup (aka, just about any fleet) will easily deal with a starbase of equal power, the way attack and defense are distributed just isn't very efficient. As such, you can say that the value shown in the UI is very much inflated, because it just counts the amount of "points", but does not account for how balanced they are distributed.

This is true for ships as well, power values should always just be seen as an approximation of what you can expect - and for starbases, that's five times as true.

You can boost a starbase's damage output by adding defensive platforms and that will push the overall efficiency of the starbase towards a more balanced setup, but even then, if the enemy fleet is big enough, it will just pick them off and then be in the same situation.

Overall, starbases are utilities, generally you don't want to rely only on them to defend you.

All this, but I would add:
1. The power of defensive starbases fluctuates during the game. Early game, they can stop an invasion at choke point, but you need to have built them as far as you can first which can be difficult before your economy is off the ground. Mid-game, I've had them completely obliterate the marauders without having to get my fleet. But late game they're mostly useful guarding gates. They won't hold attackers off long, but hopefully long enough for your fleet to gate in and take care of invaders.

2. Defensive starbases depend a lot on their build. If you'r putting missiles on them, you're wasting your time. Even fighters are a better choice, but you'll probably want to go with guns. Absolutely get the module that increases defensive platforms.

3. Defensive starbases built around shield nullification stars with defensive platforms built for destroying armor and hull are best of all.

[Ryika]

Originally posted by Fancore:

then would you be so kind as too tell me what i can do too make defenses? just have big fleets around?

(also that starbase had 6 defense platforms)

6 defense platforms aren't a lot, any fleet will kill them in a heart beat.

What you can do is max out defenses, use defensive modules and useful buildings (especially the one that adds slots for defense platforms), plus, repeatable techs that boost starbase values. If you want your starbases to stand up against an enemy on their own in the later parts of the game, you essentially need to be massively ahead in tech because you can't just add more starbases to the system like the enemy can just add more ships at that point.

Sometimes you can put starbases into systems that make them a lot harder to kill. Shield nullification reduces the effective health of any combat fleet by a LOT, but doesn't affect starbases at all since they have no shields. And you can then choose your modules to target hull/armor.

But yeah, most of the time, having a proper fleet around is definitely still something that you want to to. Stellaris isn't a tower defense game, Starbases exist to buy you time to react - at least during later parts of the game.

[tempest.of.emptiness]

Originally posted by Fancore:

then would you be so kind as too tell me what i can do too make defenses? just have big fleets around?

(also that starbase had 6 defense platforms)

Starbases are an important part of defending your empire, but you also have to be aware of their limitations. In a case where your enemy is fielding a 16k fleet you either need to have 32k starbases (roughly, and including defense platforms) or else you need to have a 16k fleet of your own. In other words, unless you have a heavy tech advantage, you need to match the fleet size of anyone who might want to attack you. If you aren't able to do that, then you are vulnerable.

[tempest.of.emptiness]

Originally posted by Ryika:

Sometimes you can put starbases into systems that make them a lot harder to kill. Shield nullification reduces the effective health of any combat fleet by a LOT, but doesn't affect starbases at all since they have no shields. And you can then choose your modules to target hull/armor.

Starbases do have shields, but your advice is still valid. The enemy fleet will usually lose more than your starbase does by having shields nullified, and you can choose not to put shields on your defense platforms to further improve the advantage.

[russak]

One big problem I find with starbases is that you have no control over what they loadout with. So they mount shieldbuster weapons when your fleet's optimised to ignore shields and armour, so they contribute effectively nothing except hit points when you do back them up with your mobile assets.

Do starbases take into account the local conditions? So does a SB in a shield nullification system replace the standard half-and-half Shields with armour instead?

[Lex_Ms]

Originally posted by russak:

One big problem I find with starbases is that you have no control over what they loadout with.

Just use your Shipdesigner to design the defenceplattform which fits the job best.

[tempest.of.emptiness]

Originally posted by russak:

Do starbases take into account the local conditions? So does a SB in a shield nullification system replace the standard half-and-half Shields with armour instead?

The starbase itself does not take local conditions into account, but you can take those conditions into account in the design of the platforms for that starbase.

[russak]

Originally posted by Lex_Ms:

Originally posted by russak:

One big problem I find with starbases is that you have no control over what they loadout with.

Just use your Shipdesigner to design the defenceplattform which fits the job best.

So what you're saying is "ignore the fact that the SB's weapons will be largely pointless". No thanks. I can *live* with it; static defenses are generally a monument to stupidity, but overlook it? No.

Originally posted by tempest.of.emptiness:

Originally posted by russak:

Do starbases take into account the local conditions? So does a SB in a shield nullification system replace the standard half-and-half Shields with armour instead?

The starbase itself does not take local conditions into account, but you can take those conditions into account in the design of the platforms for that starbase.

Thought not.

Has there been any indication as to *why* we aren't allowed to design our own SBs?

[Ryika]

Originally posted by russak:

Has there been any indication as to *why* we aren't allowed to design our own SBs?

Being able to design starbases would of course be nice, but due to technical reasons its not really feasible at the moment. It's a very big amount of work for relatively little gain.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/let-us-design-starbases.1075684/page-2#post-23903248

It's a non-issue anyway, the defense platforms and the modules/buildings that you put on the starbase are the important bits. The default loadout of the starbase itself has little impact on anything.