Egalitarian and Xenophobe should not be compatible.

[Legostyle03]

How can something claim to be an equal society and not respect the rights of all people? This seems hypocrytical.

[GentlesirGibbles]

Give me five examples of IRL xenophobic, fanatic egalitarianism please.

I gave examples with my first post. Followers of Quakerism. There were also followers of classical republicism in the venetian empire that were huge slave-owners.

Most people ask for 3 examples, rather than 5. I gave a couple from the top of my head. There are probably a few more ( Do meritocratic military slave owners count? There are plenty of hypocritical slaveowners to choose from. )

What of most of 1500's-1800's democracy seeking + political egalitarianism seeking europe/america, and classical slave-ownership?


History is full of slave-owning and politically hypocrite empires, people that seek the equality of their own people, but were all too happy to take away the liberties of another.


Xenophobic may be more difficult, as we are somewhat lacking in the xeno-department, at the moment.

Edit: Typos

[Legostyle03]

Originally posted by Isokon:

Originally posted by Legostyle03:

No relevance to the discussion. Egalitarians don't make people non-citizens.

You claimed that democracies don't have non-citizens. Don't move the goalposts.

I did not. Also, the nitpicking is real lol.

[Legostyle03]

Originally posted by GentlesirGibbles:

Originally posted by GentlesirGibbles:

Originally posted by GentlesirGibbles:

Because the empire's view on egalitarianism and your view on it, are different views.

You are seeing one definition of egalitarianism, through one lens. There are many lenses; even if you may disagree with it.

Give me five examples of IRL xenophobic, fanatic egalitarianism please.

I gave examples with my first post. Followers of Quakerism. There were also followers of classical republicism in the venetian empire that were huge slave-owners.

Most people ask for 3 examples, rather than 5. I gave a couple from the top of my head. There are probably a few more ( Do meritocratic military slave owners count? There are plenty of hypocritical slaveowners to choose from. )

What of most of 15000's-1800's democracy seeking + political egalitarianism seeking europe/america, and classical slave-ownership?


History is full of slave-owning and politically hypocrite empires, people that seek the equality of their own people, but were all too happy to take away the liberties of another.


Xenophobic may be more difficult, as we are somewhat lacking in the xeno-department, at the moment.

So there are no actual governments doing this... Huh. Would you look at that.

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Originally posted by Legostyle03:

Maybe regular egalitarian can be xenophobe, i'll give you that. But fanatic makes little sense, they are obsessed with making sure everyone is equal, so it simply doesn't make sense for them to mass murder or enslave species that have shown intellect.

Intelligence seems to be your condition for if a species should be considered people or not. Do take some time to consider that there may be many other views on that particular point.

And once you go down that rabbit hole whatever the empire in question is egalitarian or fanatical egalitarian makes little difference.

How else could you possibly decide what a person is? Spirituality?

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Legostyle03:

How else could you possibly decide what a person is? Spirituality?

As mentioned xenophobes go with "human or not human". If we instead, for example, focus on "contributions to society" then some animals could also be consider persons while some humans would not be. Or another view would be that all life is equal and deserves equal rights no matter how intelligent it is (so a ant and a human would have equal rights and value on society).

Those are just ones i came up with of the top of my head, there are likely hundreds or thousands or even more of ways to view the question.

[GentlesirGibbles]

Originally posted by Legostyle03:

So there are no actual governments doing this... Huh. Would you look at that.

If you read my post, there are, but there are no xenos on earth, so where is this xeno-phobia?

If you act like a smartass, I can be one back.Being unfriendly takes a bit more effort than reading, though. Funny how you could do the first rather than the second.

I'd really rather engage in productive conversation rather than being jerk-offs on the net.

[Isokon]

Originally posted by Legostyle03:

Originally posted by Isokon:

You claimed that democracies don't have non-citizens. Don't move the goalposts.

I did not. Also, the nitpicking is real lol.

Originally posted by Legostyle03:

Democracies that don't give full rights to some fully matured people are not democracies.

[Legostyle03]

Originally posted by GentlesirGibbles:

Originally posted by Legostyle03:

So there are no actual governments doing this... Huh. Would you look at that.

If you read my post, there are, but there are no xenos on earth, so where is this xeno-phobia?

If you act like a smartass, I can be one back.Being unfriendly takes a bit more effort than reading, though. Funny how you could do the first rather than the second.

I'd really rather engage in productive conversation rather than being jerk-offs on the net.

So one specific ideology that was never implemented is your only example?
We may not have aliens, but we still have racism and homophobia.

Official definition of xenophobia:
xenophobia noun

xe·​no·​pho·​bia | \ ˌze-nə-ˈfō-bē-ə , ˌzē- \
Definition of xenophobia
: fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Originally posted by Legostyle03:

How else could you possibly decide what a person is? Spirituality?

As mentioned xenophobes go with "human or not human". If we instead, for example, focus on "contributions to society" then some animals could also be consider persons while some humans would not be. Or another view would be that all life is equal and deserves equal rights no matter how intelligent it is (so a ant and a human would have equal rights and value on society).

Those are just ones i came up with of the top of my head, there are likely hundreds or thousands or even more of ways to view the question.

Historically, whenever discrimination has been invented, it was backed by the government as a way to control people. In an egalitarian society, the government either doesn't do this or people will know that the government is lying or framing the aliens because they can access information by themselves.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Legostyle03:

Historically, whenever discrimination has been invented, it was backed by the government as a way to control people. In an egalitarian society, the government either doesn't do this or people will know that the government is lying or framing the aliens because they can access information by themselves.

While governments have backed discrimination on multiple occasions, discrimination (in all its varied forms) has at the same time existed since the beginning of human society regardless if the government was involved or not.

In Stellaris the people themselves has the xenophobe ethic as well as to government (its not something simply made up by the government of your empire), so i would interpret that as the population themselves backing the "human or not human" mindset when it comes to if xenos are people or not (the government would not need to lie or frame xenos, since both the government and the population both do not regard xenos as people).

That said, you can do "fear campaigns" and stuff of that nature to increase the xenophobe attraction in your empire.

[GentlesirGibbles]

Originally posted by Legostyle03:

Originally posted by GentlesirGibbles:

If you read my post, there are, but there are no xenos on earth, so where is this xeno-phobia?

If you act like a smartass, I can be one back.Being unfriendly takes a bit more effort than reading, though. Funny how you could do the first rather than the second.

I'd really rather engage in productive conversation rather than being jerk-offs on the net.

So one specific ideology that was never implemented is your only example?
We may not have aliens, but we still have racism and homophobia.

Official definition of xenophobia:
xenophobia noun

xe·​no·​pho·​bia | \ ˌze-nə-ˈfō-bē-ə , ˌzē- \
Definition of xenophobia
: fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign

Thank you for redirecting back to being more respectful.

I misunderstood the definition as specific to other species, still, I offered more than one example.

I gave examples with my first post. Followers of Quakerism.

There were also followers of classical republicism in the venetian empire that were huge slave-owners.

What of most of 1500's-1800's democracy seeking + political egalitarianism seeking europe/america, and classical slave-ownership?

[Legostyle03]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Originally posted by Legostyle03:

Historically, whenever discrimination has been invented, it was backed by the government as a way to control people. In an egalitarian society, the government either doesn't do this or people will know that the government is lying or framing the aliens because they can access information by themselves.

While governments have backed discrimination on multiple occasions, discrimination (in all its varied forms) has at the same time existed since the beginning of human society regardless if the government was involved or not.

In Stellaris the people themselves has the xenophobe ethic as well as to government (its not something simply made up by the government of your empire), so i would interpret that as the population themselves backing the "human or not human" mindset when it comes to if xenos are people or not (the government would not need to lie or frame them, since both them and the population both do not regard xenos as people).

That said, you can do "fear campaigns" and stuff of that nature to increase the xenophobe attraction in your empire.

"Human only" thought does not work in a truly free society. Read my previous replies on why.

Originally posted by GentlesirGibbles:

Originally posted by Legostyle03:

So one specific ideology that was never implemented is your only example?
We may not have aliens, but we still have racism and homophobia.

Official definition of xenophobia:
xenophobia noun

xe·​no·​pho·​bia | \ ˌze-nə-ˈfō-bē-ə , ˌzē- \
Definition of xenophobia
: fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign

Thank you for redirecting back to being more respectful.

I misunderstood the definition as specific to other species, still, I offered more than one example.

I gave examples with my first post. Followers of Quakerism.

There were also followers of classical republicism in the venetian empire that were huge slave-owners.

What of most of 1500's-1800's democracy seeking + political egalitarianism seeking europe/america, and classical slave-ownership?

That's why i said that maybe regular egalitarians could still be xenophobe, but that it doesn't make sense for the fanatics, the truly dedicated ones.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Legostyle03:

"Human only" thought does not work in a truly free society. Read my previous replies on why.

They are not "a truly free society". They are xenophobic egalitarians. (Even regular egalitarians aren't about freedom, they are about equality, its a very different goal).

[GentlesirGibbles]

Originally posted by Legostyle03:

That's why i said that maybe regular egalitarians could still be xenophobe, but that it doesn't make sense for the fanatics, the truly dedicated ones.

We are on a quick way to a round-about conversation at this rate

Because the empire's view on egalitarianism and your view on it, are different views.

You are seeing one definition of egalitarianism, through one lens. There are many lenses; even if you may disagree with it.

At the end of the day, we are dealing with somewhat subjective lenses. Someone's view on equality can and has been different to yours.


Someone can say " No true Scotsman " , but you know what they say.

Edit: Failing to use quote properly

[Legostyle03]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Originally posted by Legostyle03:

"Human only" thought does not work in a truly free society. Read my previous replies on why.

They are not "a truly free society". They are xenophobic egalitarians. (Even regular egalitarians aren't about freedom, they are about equality, its a very different goal).

Bro the description literally says that any individual should be able to rise to any position with enough hard work, sounds like liberalism to me.

[climbingeastofwinter]

Originally posted by awful horror:

xenos aren't people

+1

Just turn on the news or open a history book. Humans have tried making that argument about other humans since forever. Egalitarian/Xenophobe seems realistic to me.

[Legostyle03]

Originally posted by climbingeastofwinter:

Originally posted by awful horror:

xenos aren't people

+1

Just turn on the news or open a history book. Humans have tried making that argument about other humans since forever. Egalitarian/Xenophobe seems realistic to me.

Those werent fanatic egalitarians though.