Is synthetic ascension still the best?

[Running Rat]

Now that The Flesh Is Weak only increases robot build speed by 10%, and robots cost alloys instead of minerals to build, is synthetic ascension still the way to go? Or is it now better to go with biological or psionic ascension?

[zzzverg]

Are you sure you were playing with default tech cost? That doesn't sound plausible, beelining about 100k research in 75 years like this. Synths even need freaking Positronic AI, don't they? Regardless, even if it happened, it's unreliable.

When I was trying syntetic ascendancy last time, FE declare war on you after ascention. Do you just surrender outright, or did they change that? Please don't tell me that you also had 80k fleetpower at 2275.

[IPWIW]

75 is my record,most are near 100
you can accpet humiliation,get a influence&happiness debuff instead(it's timed but they'll demand again when you dont have that)
usually 40~60k,with FE in 200k+
ｏｒ　ｈｏｐｅ　ｙｏｕ　ｄｏｎｔ　ｇｅｔ　ｓｐｉｒｉｔｕａｌｉｓｔ　ＦＥ

[zzzverg]

Yeah, I'm aware of that. So nothing changed. It just doesn't make sense for me to go for ascention to stay humiliated for a decade or two.

Also 40-60k in 2275 is definitely sounds like 0.75 tech cost at least.

No matter. If all synthetic ascendancy apologets actually reach it by 2275 on default settings, then yeah, I'd say it's the best ascendancy. I'd also ask them to record a video to teach me how to play the damn game tho.

[BigRockWall]

I planned really poorly and just got synth ascencion at 2290. Coulda done better. I can see how 2275 is possible


Also, loaded up my last RS game and noticed +12.07 assembly on my robots. So...... synth growth still better? Bio trophies are a paltry 1.7. Mine are lithid so could be better growth wise but they are bio trophies so not as big a deal

[zzzverg]

引用自 BigRockWall：

I planned really poorly and just got synth ascencion at 2290. Coulda done better. I can see how 2275 is possible

Oh, I would love to see that plan. What was in there?
Also, the difference between 2290 and 2275 is actually very formidable. I found 2290 much more believable, tho still pointless.

[BigRockWall]

引用自 zzzverg：

引用自 BigRockWall：

I planned really poorly and just got synth ascencion at 2290. Coulda done better. I can see how 2275 is possible

Oh, I would love to see that plan. What was in there?
Also, the difference between 2290 and 2275 is actually very formidable. I found 2290 much more believable, tho still pointless.

I colonized to many planets to quickly, and the tech/unity got slowed down because of it. Keep it small early, throw everything you can into the tech planet.

Technocracy, mechanist. All hail the mighty Irken Empire.

[Azor]

引用自 zzzverg：

引用自 d1cksniper：

It's a innate bonus (that is, before traits) of 20% to EVERY output (that includes research, alloys, consumer goods and strategic resources), plus 11 pop assembly speed alongside biological pop growth.

synth ascension population growth and output are unparalleled

Unparalleled is a big word. For example, take research, arguably the most important resourse. In the endgame the bonuses on tech world will be around this values: 85% generic 'empire', 15% institute, 30% governor, 20% stability, 20% assistance. Usually some or all of this numbers will be bigger, but let's say it's about 170% total. 20% bonus (which synths can achieve only on machine worlds) will give you about what, 7% net increace? Add to that that synths generally suck in research: they can achieve only 15% using traits. Psionic ascention can give you 20% half of it for free, genetic ascention can give 25%. Plus all bio pops can use generic 'natural' traits, giving another 5% on average. Synths do not even beat organics here, all things considered.

Ascended synths most certanly want to produce alloys on ecumonopoli, like everybody else, meaning that their bonus will be only 10%. Again, ordinary species ecumonopolis gives you: 50% 'empire', 15% ministry, 20% ecumonopolis, 20% governor, 20% stab. Total of 125%, so net increase of about 4.5%. It's not nothing, but 'unparalleled'? Come on. In late game you're usually not even limited by resourses, but by megastructure building cap. Unless you're doing something crazy, like x25 crisis in 2400, and hysterically building your 10M firepower fleet. Even that can be done without going synthetic.

Growth, yeah, I'll give them that. Personally, don't care about it in late game tho.

In my opinion it doesn't worth all the fuss with rebuilding food production, pissing of FE and all the spiritualists in the galaxy, and making really, really bad decision lore-whise (if you're into RP, that is). Psionic is the way to go. You're getting all the shinies without need to manage ♥♥♥♥.

Synth ascended can get 15% from institute, 20% from stability and 20% from assistance too, so I'm just going to quote my previous post

also, reminder that synth ascension gives +10% output o robots which includes research and synth tech gives +10% output to robots as well so
VVV

引用自 d1cksniper：

90% of your pops become materialist when you ascend (robots have huge attraction), so factions become a non-issue.

anyway

How does synthetics compare to bio ascension?


In terms of research
Synths can achieve +35% research output using its "intelligent" trait (10% to research output) and its trait that gives +5% to all output
Bio ascension can achieve 45% to one research type and 30% to the other types by choosing:
Erudite (+20% pop research output, +5% from Erudite governor trait), natural scientist (15% to one research type), robust (+5% to all prodution)

In terms of mineral/energy/food production
Synths achieve 20% without traits
Bio pops will need Industrious, Ingenious, and Farmer (15% each) + robust to get 20%

In consumer goods/alloys production
Synths achieve 20% without traits
Bio can achieve +5% with robust trait

Strategic resources
Synths achieve +20% without traits
Bio can achieve +5% with robust trait

Pop growth
I will have to test this one in current patch yet since The Flesh is weak nerf, but previously you could get +10.9 assembling speed + ~4.5 pop growth without migration bonuses
With fertile + clone vats, around 7 pop growth without migration + 2.3 assembling speed

Synth evolution appear to be superior here at least

EDIT:
When it comes to conquering other planets, synthethic evoluion has a disadvantage compared to bio ascension, because it takes months or years to assimilate a large number pops, while, with a good amount of research output, biologically ascended empires can modify the conquered pops to have their best traits in 1 or a few months.

Bio ascension seems to win here.

[Dakota]

引用自 zzzverg：

引用自 Dakota：

For example they'd be producing consumer goods at a considerably better rate

They do not produce anything at a 'considerably' better rate. They produce some resources on marginnaly better rate and they produce research at the same rate, because their 20% bonus is lost among the amount of bonuses empires normaly have at this point in the game. It's just as additive as any other one.

I'm not interested in pop growth, because it's mostly early game and partially middle game consern. At the time you reach ascention majority of your planets are overpopulated anyway and if you build fresh habitat/ringworld the pop growth on it will be about 8 right off the bat, no ressetlement needed. Synths can't even do it, they need their colony to grow first to reach their two-digit numbers. In the end, yeah, they can grow quick, but how quick do you need to grow if the expansion phase is over anyway? At no time when I played ascended synths I even had the thought like 'Oh, I'm so glad that I have that all growth rate!'. It's quite convenient that you can easily limit the growth to avoid loss of stability tho.

Wanted to bring up synth leaders also give 5% robot output, synth governors give 5% energy and minerals. Also seeing as the percentages are additive, the 20% higher consumer goods production that robots would have over the other ones still gives each job a 1.2 increase in consumer good production assuming the base value of 6 goods per job. You seem to be somewhat underestimating the benefit of additive boosts. Also if we are going by what you're saying with the basic empire having 125% boost overall to their production and then add the 25% (synth tech, synth ascension, efficient processors) to that then that's still a 20% boost to your boost to go with synths. Basically for every 2 consumer goods production jobs you'd have paid off one additional researcher (also assuming his personal consumer good costs are normal rather than enslaved).

Also I generally get synth ascension between 2275 and 2300 without focusing too hard on it, around 2500 science income will get it done easily enough and is easy to achieve while also producing hundreds of alloy, unity, and other resources per month.

Also you may get 8 off the bat as an organic ascended on a fresh hab, but even prior to that they start with 5.06 production on a hab with no upgraded administration and just a robot factory, they also have organics being produced to then assimilate for another 3.9, giving them about 9 pop growth off the bat which of course goes up massively as they upgrade their capital buildings to get more assembly.

As synths I don't really see reason much in turning off pop growth anywhere, rather just keeping up constant expansion and resettling them to newly built ringworlds/ecumenopoli/habs/conquered planets. It's basically just exponential growth, get more pops which gives you more alloy to make more habs which gives you more pop growth and more alloy to make more pops and alloy and habs indefinitely. The Fallen empires I never tend to consider outside of conquest.

[zzzverg]

引用自 Dakota：

You seem to be somewhat underestimating the benefit of additive boosts. Also if we are going by what you're saying with the basic empire having 125% boost overall to their production and then add the 25% (synth tech, synth ascension, efficient processors) to that then that's still a 20% boost to your boost to go with synths. Basically for every 2 consumer goods production jobs you'd have paid off one additional researcher

Well, you seem to somewhat overestimate these benefits. First of all, organic empire does not have 125% boost to consumer goods production, it's unachievable. Reasonable boost will be about 90%. If you add another 25% to it, it will give you about 13% net increase. In your example adding 25% to existing 125% boost will give about 11% net increase, not 20%. So, for any three jobs you can (almost) pay an additional researcher, but this three jobs already support about seventeen researchers. It is still something, but it's way less than you're trying to depicture. And this situation only apply to consumer goods (which are dirt cheap in late game) and alloys (which need to be used, more on that later). Basic resources have bonuses above 200%, for them 25% additive is almost non-existent.

Ruler trait for synthetic ascendancy is inferior. Influence boost from psionics is the best. 5% reseach speed > 5% output by a long margin. Governor trait is absolutely useless, the reason is above.

I searched for modern meta on tech rush and found literally two more or less trustworhy documented instances of people doing something close to what you're describing (ascendency and 2500 tech in 2275). Of course they were specifically aiming for this, and they both admitted that they had very lucky start. There was no secret daedric strategy or something, it's just minmaxed empire build and dumb luck early game. Of course the internet is full of people who do that easily every single run, but unfortunately they don't have anything to show for it. I'm not accusing you of anything, but I'm not going to talk about it further either.

Whether you tend to conseder FE ouside of conquest or not, they will declare war on you. If you're not able to beat them (like, you're in 2275 or something), they will live you permanently humiliated until you're able to, and it's not something to ignore.

Now about spamming habitats and megastructures endgame. Fine, I admit, if you are willing to maximize that spam, then synthetic ascendancy will give you a small edge over others. Still nothing radical, but an edge nonetheless. No reasonable average player is going to do that tho. Endgame empire consist of about maybe 50 colonies if played relatively tall and well above hundred if played wide. Not enough macro, eh? Let's maximize growth everywhere and start resettling people! Build fifteen ringworlds before 2450! Seriously, at 5000 pops my comp starts hiccuping a bit. Even if you have a monster of a computer, what about your time? Don't answer that. You do you, and ok, I admit, synthetic ascendancy will allow you to grow a bit faster if you're into that. But if you're not doing that crazy spam (like normal human being, i hate to add), then synthetic ascendancy just does virtually nothing for you. Also, you're still mainly limited by megastructure cap, like everyone else, not your resources.

[Dakota]

引用自 zzzverg：

引用自 Dakota：

You seem to be somewhat underestimating the benefit of additive boosts. Also if we are going by what you're saying with the basic empire having 125% boost overall to their production and then add the 25% (synth tech, synth ascension, efficient processors) to that then that's still a 20% boost to your boost to go with synths. Basically for every 2 consumer goods production jobs you'd have paid off one additional researcher

Well, you seem to somewhat overestimate these benefits. First of all, organic empire does not have 125% boost to consumer goods production, it's unachievable. Reasonable boost will be about 90%. If you add another 25% to it, it will give you about 13% net increase. In your example adding 25% to existing 125% boost will give about 11% net increase, not 20%. So, for any three jobs you can (almost) pay an additional researcher, but this three jobs already support about seventeen researchers. It is still something, but it's way less than you're trying to depicture. And this situation only apply to consumer goods (which are dirt cheap in late game) and alloys (which need to be used, more on that later). Basic resources have bonuses above 200%, for them 25% additive is almost non-existent.

Ruler trait for synthetic ascendancy is inferior. Influence boost from psionics is the best. 5% reseach speed > 5% output by a long margin. Governor trait is absolutely useless, the reason is above.

I searched for modern meta on tech rush and found literally two more or less trustworhy documented instances of people doing something close to what you're describing (ascendency and 2500 tech in 2275). Of course they were specifically aiming for this, and they both admitted that they had very lucky start. There was no secret daedric strategy or something, it's just minmaxed empire build and dumb luck early game. Of course the internet is full of people who do that easily every single run, but unfortunately they don't have anything to show for it. I'm not accusing you of anything, but I'm not going to talk about it further either.

Whether you tend to conseder FE ouside of conquest or not, they will declare war on you. If you're not able to beat them (like, you're in 2275 or something), they will live you permanently humiliated until you're able to, and it's not something to ignore.

Now about spamming habitats and megastructures endgame. Fine, I admit, if you are willing to maximize that spam, then synthetic ascendancy will give you a small edge over others. Still nothing radical, but an edge nonetheless. No reasonable average player is going to do that tho. Endgame empire consist of about maybe 50 colonies if played relatively tall and well above hundred if played wide. Not enough macro, eh? Let's maximize growth everywhere and start resettling people! Build fifteen ringworlds before 2450! Seriously, at 5000 pops my comp starts hiccuping a bit. Even if you have a monster of a computer, what about your time? Don't answer that. You do you, and ok, I admit, synthetic ascendancy will allow you to grow a bit faster if you're into that. But if you're not doing that crazy spam (like normal human being, i hate to add), then synthetic ascendancy just does virtually nothing for you. Also, you're still mainly limited by megastructure cap, like everyone else, not your resources.

I'll mention that within the first 75 years I'll have already built around 20 habs and am extremely powerful within the galaxy on grand admiral so that might have something to do with getting to ascension pretty early since my pop count will be huge so I just have a lot of everything.

Also 5% output also gives 5% research speed. Provides 5% increase to output on all jobs, you can see this also in things like egalitarian's specialist buff giving boosts to research too and meritocracy. I like to have meritocracy in my builds too.

[zzzverg]

引用自 Dakota：

I'll mention that within the first 75 years I'll have already built around 20 habs and am extremely powerful within the galaxy on grand admiral so that might have something to do with getting to ascension pretty early since my pop count will be huge so I just have a lot of everything.

Also 5% output also gives 5% research speed. Provides 5% increase to output on all jobs, you can see this also in things like egalitarian's specialist buff giving boosts to research too and meritocracy. I like to have meritocracy in my builds too.

Yeah, yeah, you're great player, very powerful, nobody heard about such power-players before, you're tremendous. It's not even sarcasm, I'm dead serious. Also it has nothing to do with the topic at hands anymore.

5% output does not give you research speed, it gives you research output, which we discussed before. Research speed stacks with research speed bonuses, which are lower than research output bonuses.

Let's end this, nobody is reading these sheets anyway, you're not convincing me, I'm not convincing you, time to move on with our lives.