Guaranteed Independence leads to Neverending War!!

[OgamiGoro]

I have a rival empire just below me that's been a pain in my ass since the beginning. Over the decades, I've managed to beat them into "Inferior/Pathetic" fleet status, and claim a third of their empire. This of course means that they have some rebellion within their own, and one such system popped up. Naturally as a big "♥♥♥♥ you" to the xeno asshats, I opened up diplomatic relations and Guaranteed this little system's Independence.

Well, xeno asshats will be xeno asshats, so they declared war on this little independent system in order to reclaim it. I flooded in with my "SUPERIOR" fleet, claimed all of the territories I had already claimed previously, and smashed the xeno fleet that had already defeated the Little Indepedent by the time I got there. Having all my claimed systems occupied, and having liberated the Little Independent, and having bludgeoned the Xeno Asshats into 66% War Exhaustion within the first couple months, (vs my 20% War Exhaustion), I figured this would be the perfect time for a Status Quo peace offer.

And that's when I found out....I can't.

There was no option for me to sue for peace, because apparently I wasn't one of the "original sides" in this war. The Xeno Asshats had declared war on the Little Independent, and while I was called in as one of the Defenders in the war, I had NO SAY in when it ended! I couldn't even Surrender to get out of it. It was entirely up to the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ AI Little Independent and the invading Xeno Asshats!!

Which either of them NEVER did!

It took 3+ hours of real world time, (I don't know the decades of in game time conversion) for, not the Little Independent whose assed I saved, but the invading Xeno Asshats to FINALLY ask for a Status Quo. During that time, they had managed to raise a second fleet that was twice as big and powerful as mine (though still listed in the Empire Screen as "Inferior") and I took heavy losses, not counting the damage to my economy.

Fix this now. I see no value in Guaranteeing anyone's Independence if all it does is draw you into a war you didn't start and have literally NO SAY in ending.

[Elitewrecker PT]

Fix you not occupying everything?
The AI couldn't have raised a second fleet stronger than yours if you had bothered to actually seize their means of production. An empire has to surrender the moment their entire territory is occupied. You had to keep beating them to 100% exhaustion and wait 2 years at most.

[MozarteanChaos]

Originally posted by OgamiGoro:

Fix this now. I see no value in Guaranteeing anyone's Independence if all it does is draw you into a war you didn't start and have literally NO SAY in ending.

if you don't want to to go to war and/or don't know the war mechanics, perhaps don't use the mechanic that calls you into other empires' wars...? just a thought.

[OgamiGoro]

Originally posted by Elitewrecker PT:

Fix you not occupying everything?
The AI couldn't have raised a second fleet stronger than yours if you had bothered to actually seize their means of production. An empire has to surrender the moment their entire territory is occupied. You had to keep beating them to 100% exhaustion and wait 2 years at most.

You DO know that every time you take a system without fighting their fleet, it increases YOUR War Exhaustion and not theirs, right?

And the only reason I didn't go on to smash their entire empire, which, since their empire was pretty vast even AFTER I took a 3rd of it, would've put MY War Exhaustion closer to 100% faster than them; was because I was waiting to see if the stupid AI Independent, who I literally liberated and saved from conquest, thereby fulfilling the very condition of Defending Against Conquest and Guaranteeing Independence, would give a peace offer automatically.

I swear, you people don't even read this ♥♥♥♥.

[OgamiGoro]

Originally posted by MozarteanChaos:

Originally posted by OgamiGoro:

Fix this now. I see no value in Guaranteeing anyone's Independence if all it does is draw you into a war you didn't start and have literally NO SAY in ending.

if you don't want to to go to war and/or don't know the war mechanics, perhaps don't use the mechanic that calls you into other empires' wars...? just a thought.

You clearly have no thoughts.

If you go to war as a nation, and YOU'RE the dominant force in that war, shouldn't you have a say in determining when the war is over or not? Did the stupid little pissant AI Independent help at all in this war? No, when do they ever? So who should be the one making the military decisions in that situation on their behalf? The dominant force in that situation. THAT'S what needs to be fixed.

But of course you're right, that's the last time I ever Guarantee some pissant rebel nation's independence from their asshat overseers. Enemy of my enemy is not my friend, not in this game.

It'd be nice if they fixed that though.

[Elitewrecker PT]

Oh I read all the ♥♥♥♥, but I know how the war works.
No, taking enemy systems doesn't increase your exhaustion unless you're losing ships or armies.
It wouldn't matter if your exhaustion was at 100 sooner (it wouldn't) because if the enemy isn't occupying anything then you don't lose anything in a status quo.
What makes you think the AI would even think of proposing a status quo at just 66-20, just because he was "liberated".

Did you even check what your protegee's actual goal was.

[Elitewrecker PT]

Originally posted by OgamiGoro:

Originally posted by MozarteanChaos:

if you don't want to to go to war and/or don't know the war mechanics, perhaps don't use the mechanic that calls you into other empires' wars...? just a thought.

You clearly have no thoughts.

If you go to war as a nation, and YOU'RE the dominant force in that war, shouldn't you have a say in determining when the war is over or not? Did the stupid little pissant AI Independent help at all in this war? No, when do they ever? So who should be the one making the military decisions in that situation on their behalf? The dominant force in that situation. THAT'S what needs to be fixed.

But of course you're right, that's the last time I ever Guarantee some pissant rebel nation's independence from their asshat overseers. Enemy of my enemy is not my friend, not in this game.

It'd be nice if they fixed that though.

Whether the higher participant should have a say when they're not the main target or not is irrelevant. Would be nice, but doesn't excuse the actual problem (not actually doing what would end the war ).

[OgamiGoro]

Originally posted by Elitewrecker PT:

Oh I read all the ♥♥♥♥, but I know how the war works.
No, taking enemy systems doesn't increase your exhaustion unless you're losing ships or armies.
It wouldn't matter if your exhaustion was at 100 sooner (it wouldn't) because if the enemy isn't occupying anything then you don't lose anything in a status quo.
What makes you think the AI would even think of proposing a status quo at just 66-20, just because he was "liberated".

See, now I know you're full of ♥♥♥♥. I waged a different war against a massive empire that had a wormhole, so it was on 2 ends of the galaxy, and it hid its fleet on the far side. So I had to battle and occupy every system first to find the wormhole and then, once on the other side, find the damn fleet. My fleet was overpowered compared to them, and I did not lose a single ship to space stations or stupid xeno outposts. But with every system I took, my War Exhaustion ticked up ever so slightly. By the time I found the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, I was at 100% and they were barely above 30%. I HAD to hunt down every last ship in order to get them to 100% and they FINALLY caved to a ceasefire.

If you know the War Mechanic, you know it's about destroying their entire fleet and/or smashing their planetary armies. (And don't get me started with the broken Vassal system, with its Marine Transport Ships that don't follow and you can't move, even as it holds 2000k attack power).

And every second you don't, even if you don't lose ships, if you fight dozens of space stations, it will be YOUR War Exhaustion that ticks up and not theirs.

But NONE of this matters. What matters is the FACT that if YOU are the dominant military force in a war, even if it's on someone else's behalf, YOU should be the one to parlay terms. THAT was the point, and THAT is what should be fixed.

You don't read ♥♥♥♥.

[Darklordnj]

Originally posted by OgamiGoro:

Originally posted by Elitewrecker PT:

Fix you not occupying everything?
The AI couldn't have raised a second fleet stronger than yours if you had bothered to actually seize their means of production. An empire has to surrender the moment their entire territory is occupied. You had to keep beating them to 100% exhaustion and wait 2 years at most.

You DO know that every time you take a system without fighting their fleet, it increases YOUR War Exhaustion and not theirs, right?

Only happens if you lose ships, which by the sounds of things was the case.

War exhaustion also ticks up over time, so it sounds like instead of accomplishing objectives, you rushed in, won some stuff and then did ♥♥♥♥ all to win the war. And now you complain that because you did nothing but wait, the AI was able to make a comeback and the war took a really long time.

[MadMek]

You do realize that war exhaustion is not how you win wars, and that a status quo has exactly the same results no matter which side reached 100% war exhaustion first?

Stop insulting people and listen to them when they try to explain the game mechanics to you. If you were so much stronger than your opponent, you could have just taken their systems, which would have prevented them from raising new fleets and would have forced them to surrender if you took all of them, regardless of war exhaustion, which is only a timer on how long the war can continue, NOT a measure of who's winning. You could have 100% WE while your opponent is only on 10% and still win the war by accomplishing your strategic objectives instead of just grinding your fleets into theirs.

[Elitewrecker PT]

Originally posted by OgamiGoro:

Originally posted by Elitewrecker PT:

Oh I read all the ♥♥♥♥, but I know how the war works.
No, taking enemy systems doesn't increase your exhaustion unless you're losing ships or armies.
It wouldn't matter if your exhaustion was at 100 sooner (it wouldn't) because if the enemy isn't occupying anything then you don't lose anything in a status quo.
What makes you think the AI would even think of proposing a status quo at just 66-20, just because he was "liberated".

See, now I know you're full of ♥♥♥♥. I waged a different war against a massive empire that had a wormhole, so it was on 2 ends of the galaxy, and it hid its fleet on the far side. So I had to battle and occupy every system first to find the wormhole and then, once on the other side, find the damn fleet. My fleet was overpowered compared to them, and I did not lose a single ship to space stations or stupid xeno outposts. But with every system I took, my War Exhaustion ticked up ever so slightly. By the time I found the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, I was at 100% and they were barely above 30%. I HAD to hunt down every last ship in order to get them to 100% and they FINALLY caved to a ceasefire.

If you know the War Mechanic, you know it's about destroying their entire fleet and/or smashing their planetary armies. (And don't get me started with the broken Vassal system, with its Marine Transport Ships that don't follow and you can't move, even as it holds 2000k attack power).

And every second you don't, even if you don't lose ships, if you fight dozens of space stations, it will be YOUR War Exhaustion that ticks up and not theirs.

But NONE of this matters. What matters is the FACT that if YOU are the dominant military force in a war, even if it's on someone else's behalf, YOU should be the one to parlay terms. THAT was the point, and THAT is what should be fixed.

You don't read ♥♥♥♥.

War exhaustion increases slightly over time for both sides, even if both sides stood still just looking at each other.

[bea.hirtes]

Some people has been very unhappy about this, maybe they createt a mod without the monthly war-exhaustion-increase.

Are you using any mod´s?

[OgamiGoro]

Originally posted by walter.hirtes:

Some people has been very unhappy about this, maybe they createt a mod without the monthly war-exhaustion-increase.

Are you using any mod´s?

No, and I was thinking about looking into it. I'll check to see if this game has a community on Nexus, but if you know a good platform that isn't that, please let me know.

Is there a "Might Makes Right" mod that makes YOU the authority in a war if you happen to be the dominating force on your side?

[OgamiGoro]

Originally posted by MadMek:

You do realize that war exhaustion is not how you win wars, and that a status quo has exactly the same results no matter which side reached 100% war exhaustion first?

Stop insulting people and listen to them when they try to explain the game mechanics to you. If you were so much stronger than your opponent, you could have just taken their systems, which would have prevented them from raising new fleets and would have forced them to surrender if you took all of them, regardless of war exhaustion, which is only a timer on how long the war can continue, NOT a measure of who's winning. You could have 100% WE while your opponent is only on 10% and still win the war by accomplishing your strategic objectives instead of just grinding your fleets into theirs.

"Errr, stop insulting people" as you completely miss the point.

My POINT was, mate, it DIDN'T MATTER if I smashed their entire fleet and occupied every single planet and system, I DID NOT HAVE THE OPTION. PERIOD. I couldn't even SURRENDER. The only way for the war to end was for the AI to sue for peace, and the Little Pissant Independent was NEVER going to. That's stupid.

Now I get that this is all old news to you and it's just the way it is, but it's stupid. If you are the dominant force in a war that you're fighting for someone else, YOU should be the one who the enemy must treat with, and YOU should be the one who decides when and where to stop aiding the pathetic weakling that just sits there the entire war not helping.

Yes, now I know better. Guarantee Independence leads not to a defensive war, but just a regular all out war that demands full conquest. Don't aid anyone unless you just need the excuse. Got it.

Because the way it is is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stupid.

[Elitewrecker PT]

"My POINT was, mate, it DIDN'T MATTER if I smashed their entire fleet and occupied every single planet and system"

And my points was: yes, it did matter, because the AI would surrender once all the territory was occupied (but likely earlier). Checking the empire you're guaranteeing actual war goal would also help.

[Elitewrecker PT]

It DOESN'T MATTER that the player doesn't have the OPTION. The LOSING AI WOULD SURRENDER, it's FORCED to surrender, once all its territory is occupied. You don't need any input.
You have less control over the war ending earlier via status quo, but you can still end it by completely occupying everything.