25X Crisis Strength Playthrough

[Nightmyre]

Alright - gonna try and keep this concise, so it's as easy to digest as possible. No mods, max difficulty settings (all advanced start empires, max number of empires, crisis date 2250, no scaling difficulty, and aggressive ai)

Empire setup: Syncretic Evolution
Primary Species: Rapid Breeders, Intelligent, Natural Sociologists, Unruly, Decadent
Syncretic Species: Rapid Breeders, Strong, Slow Learners, Fleeting
Civics: Technocracy, Meritocracy
Ethics: Xenophobe, Fanatic Materialist

This is, in my mind, the strongest current build. You get massive population growth as well as a big boost to research, and, importantly, you get to reach the all-important Biological Ascension path as quickly as possible.

Playthrough:

Year 0:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2055004514
+20 Energy / + 30 Minerals / +13 Food / +11 Alloys / +12 Unity / +83 Research / 31/50 Sprawl
Pretty good starting location, all things considered. From the outset, looks like only one entrance, a reasonable amount of space, and hopefully some good planets!

Year 20:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2055004540
+42 Energy / + 85 Minerals / +7 Food / +6 Alloys / +21 Unity / +188 Research / 85/62 Sprawl
Very good so far. Baol precursor, which is probably one of the two strongest. Lots of planets in my space that can be switched to Gaia planets eventually. Because of that, I chose to colonize every single planet, even those that were at 20% habitability - sacrifice initial research in exchange for way faster pop development. Only one empire bordering me so far, who I quickly passified through diplomacy.

Year 40:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2055004572
+141 Energy / +346 Minerals / +143 Food / +0 Alloys / +65 Unity / +468 Research / 232/187 Sprawl
*Amazing* development. That extra branch off to my side is completely walled off, so a ton of extra space to develop into, and no other people bordering me. The Total War empire bordering my neighbour unfortunately wiped out my neighbour, but fortunately, there's one key system (not easily visible here) that cuts off the main empire from the rest, so I should be safe. Also luckily, the last dig site is in Nixahel, which used to be owned by my neighbour, but now that he's dead, is available for me! And best yet - got the relic world digsite, so my future source of alloys/consumer goods is now set.

Year 60:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2055004618
+237 Energy / +639 Minerals / +321 Food / +13 Alloys / +140 Unity / +936 Research / 380/385 Sprawl
Now that I've finished my colonization phase, and I got the Baol precursor chain finished, it's time to start ramping up my research. Planets are now shifting full-time to research. Haven't started my ecumenopolis yet, but that should be happening soon enough. Total War empire has been too busy with its neighbours to bother me.

Year 80:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2055004726
+374 Energy / +836 Minerals / +674 Food / +27 Alloys / +567 Unity / +5K Research / 554/565 Sprawl
Research is now in full swing - five times what it was 20 years ago. Also, as a result of Technocracy, my unity production is also way up. Ecumenopolis is finished, planets are busily shifting pops to that to ramp up my consumer goods and alloy production. Starbases are now all upgraded to citadels, though no ship development yet - still way too early for that.

Year 100:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2055004877
+1k Energy / +895 Minerals / -460 Food / +91 Alloys / +815 Unity / +9K Research / 678/632 Sprawl
Planets are now basically complete. I unfortunately realised only much later, that my food pops had swapped out of being livestock and into just normal slaves, which means I wasted a bunch of time swapping districts over to food to make up for my food deficit. Research is basically capped out at +9K - all my planets are pretty much done. Just waiting for the crisis now.

Year 120:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2055002514
Quick one here - initial thought was, wow, doesn't seem too bad at all. Only 660K fleet strength?

Year 130:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2055002570
+541 Energy / +790 Minerals / +636 Food / +491 Alloys / +1K Unity / +9K Research / 818/908 Sprawl
Spoke too soon. Gonna be interesting to see how I take the queen out. 3.6M fleet strength. Good thing it's Prethoryn Scourge and not Contingency - they'd probably be something like 7-8M or so.

Year 140:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2055002593
Unfortunately they came almost straight for me, so I had to fight way sooner than I'd have liked to. I have only two full battleship fleets and my juggernaut.
But oh my god - juggernaut is just unbelievably OP. My ships are literally firing from across the entire map. Despite the enemy being 1.3M fleet strength, I wiped it out with zero losses. Now from this point going forward it's just a waiting game. I walled off the only choke point with a big army, and I just need to figure out just how big my fleet needs to be to take out the queen. I figure if two full battleship fleets is enough for 1.3M, I can probably handle the queen with six full battleship fleets. Will update when that happens.

[Nightmyre]

Okay - and so finally, after a fairly long buildup, I went for their primary fleet in my space.

Before:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2055096166
(Just to demonstrate how amazing the juggernaut range buff is. Look at how far that perdition beam is reaching!)

After:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2055096184
I did end up taking a few losses, so I'm glad I decided to get that seventh fleet. I'll probably add an eighth fleet just to be safe going forward.

So - conclusion: 25x crisis strength vs Prethoryn Scourge is perfectly beatable. I still expect that Contingency will be nearly impossible, but that'll be for my next playthrough :)

[Cryten]

Did you bribe all your neighbors into ingnoring the fact that you where pathetic military for 80 years?

[Nightmyre]

Originally posted by Cryten:

Did you bribe all your neighbors into ingnoring the fact that you where pathetic military for 80 years?

Only had one. So yep.

I mean, for what it's worth, I doubt there's any other way to win with the game conditions I've got set.

[TSP]

ISS Sho-Dan.
Ah, I see you're a man of culture as well.

[gutter monkey]

havent tried 25x crisis but in my experience the best tech, alloy rush empire is an energy deficient machine empire. having been using the same settings as you for the past couple playthroughs i can consistently get a full mega shipyard, another repaired ringworld section and 60-80% dyson sphere by 2290 or so. (if good rng permits this could be pushed to full dyson sphere).

since the crisis only spawns 50 years after the endgame (where the minimum endgame is 2250). theoretically you would have at least ~10 years of megastructure tier alloy output to engineer whatever fleet you need to destroy the crisis, and since enough of the dyson sphere is completed to counter whatever massive energy deficit you had for the first 70/80 years, the attached debuffs to negative energy are a moot point.

this is my screenshot for proof, in this game i was boxed in extremely early by marauders. while this meant i didnt have to bribe whatever border empire i had, it also meant i was restrained to way fewer planets than optimal. this screenshot was from one of my games early into 2.6 so i think the strategy could be improved upon.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2055131702

[Nightmyre]

Is that with a Shattered Ring start?

I didn't choose that start because I consider it as one of the "easier" starts - similar to a relic world start.

[HugsAndSnuggles]

Okay, I'll just post it here, for convinience' sake.

Originally posted by Nightmyre:

Are you playing with the same game settings as me?

Probably. Earliest crisis, 1000 stars, max AIs (and FEs) all advanced starts, agressive. Most of the other things untouched, at x1. Obviously, GA wihtout scaling.

Originally posted by Nightmyre:

I honestly can't see how you're able to play a military-focused empire and still reach even close to the same research pace as when you focus on research, if you're up against an advanced start AI.

If anything, advanced AI makes stuff easier by providing more pops than normal.

Originally posted by Nightmyre:

Against a normal AI I can see it working, because you can subjugate your neighbours and use the energy you get from tribute to compensate for the slower research start.

You don't need to subjugate anyone, it's inefficient (even for megacorp). You simply take their pops and put them to work.

Compare, if you want.


Year 10. Basically, just depicts my starting position:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2075790514
Year 15. Just started a war, incidentally, saving them from purifiers.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2077285817
Year 20. Start of the second war (same amount of research output, btw):
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2077285927
Year 26. End of the second war:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2077286058
Year 31. Finally starting to mop up Prikk-Ti:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2077286160
Year 38. And done:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2077286263
Year 50. Taking extra planets from neighbouring megacorp:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2077287026
Year 69. Got to that ascension (also forgot to take a couple screens in-between):
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2077287139
Year 75. Refurbished ecumenoopolis:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2077287783
Year 81. Khan died without achievein much:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2077287976
Year 93. Building up that ecumenopolis:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2077288739
Year 100.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2077289495

So, I'd say it's pretty doable. If job weights weren't all messed up, I wouldn't even have those problems with admin cap. Got kind of bored after first ~50 years, though, so shifted focus to bulding instead of conquest. Didn't turn out too good.

[Nightmyre]

From your first war, what fleets did you end up fighting? Last time I tried going to war that early, I had a similarly-sized fleet to yours, and got absolutely pummelled by an AI fleet that was at least twice my size:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2027932034

[HugsAndSnuggles]

Originally posted by Nightmyre:

From your first war, what fleets did you end up fighting? Last time I tried going to war that early, I had a similarly-sized fleet to yours, and got absolutely pummelled by an AI fleet that was at least twice my size:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2027932034

Honestly? In that particular playthorough AI "mesterfuly" maveuvered their fleets away from mine, so I ended up simply taking over planets during first two wars. From what I've seen, however, they both had similar-sized fleets (althouth, the first empire might have been a bit short of two 20-corvette stacks... or three - only ever seen one, Prikki-Ti declaring almost simultaniously didn't help there). I was F.Militarist, though, so my fleets were a bit stronger by definition (not to mention, having a bit saner designs/composition).

Of course, speaking from general experience, it's posible for AI to pull off 4x20-corvette stacks by 2215-2220, but it's still relatively rare. Wasn't a thing before 2.6 - back then a single 40-corvette fleet was enough up into mid-2220s. Not sure if this is also stirred up by rivalries (I think it does?), but I try not to antagonize anyone up until I'm ready to strike.

What you need, currently, is a 40-corvette stack no later than 2215 (ideally, backed up by another 20+ corvette fleet). Othwerwise, you risk ending up in arms race you're bound to lose. Early wars also depend a lot on a +100HP tech - if you get it, 40-corvette stack will, likely, be enough; otherwise - depends on AI (especially since advanced AI is likely to have that thech too).

Map layout also matters: ideally, you want a fast, easy access to their capital, or have enough space to "lure" AI fleet away from starbases (unless overwhelming, AI prefers to attack unprotected systems - both yours and occupied - to hunting down your fleets). Failing that, there's gotta be enough upgraded starbases along the way you can rapair at, otherwise it'll end up in a stalemate: both fleets will meet half-way and be too damaged to finish the job. One side might end up winning that, but it takes time, and with x25 crisis approaching it's something you do not have a lot of.

[Nightmyre]

Okay. So I gave it another try - and you're right, you can win those fights, although I think 40-corvette stack may not be enough - I had a 50-corvette stack with another spare 12-stack and won handily, but I expect with a 40-stack I'd have taken some pretty big losses in the victory.

But there's two big problems still:

1) Unless you're lucky enough to really be right next to them, you've got to claim your way through their empire before you can reach their capitol. And then even if you do get to claim the capitol, when you win the war, you'll only get the systems you've claimed, along with their pops of course. I'm not convinced that the one-shot gain of those pops is enough to make up for losing all that extra growth from foregoing the military.

2) Even putting aside the possibility that you can pull it off - there's no way it's optimal. You need a bunch of things to go right for it to work, whereas with the tech-focused build, you really just need to have one thing - no total war neighbour. As long as that's the case, you can use diplomacy easily enough to keep your neighbours passive, and then just focus on research and pop growth.

[HugsAndSnuggles]

Originally posted by Nightmyre:

Okay. So I gave it another try - and you're right, you can win those fights, although I think 40-corvette stack may not be enough - I had a 50-corvette stack with another spare 12-stack and won handily, but I expect with a 40-stack I'd have taken some pretty big losses in the victory.

It depends on AI military buildup, and is pretty time-sensitive: an extra year or two is a lot early on.

Originally posted by Nightmyre:

1) Unless you're lucky enough to really be right next to them, you've got to claim your way through their empire before you can reach their capitol.

Just their capital, really (optionally, other habitable worlds, for elimination). Having traderoutes isn't worth the influence (and time to get it).

Originally posted by Nightmyre:

2) Even putting aside the possibility that you can pull it off - there's no way it's optimal. You need a bunch of things to go right for it to work

Not really. All you need is to go down supremacy tree and pump out enough alloys/unity to be combat-ready in ~15 years. Also, only need 2 systems - for anchrages. Might not be optimal, but it's reliable.

Originally posted by Nightmyre:

whereas with the tech-focused build, you really just need to have one thing - no total war neighbour. As long as that's the case, you can use diplomacy easily enough to keep your neighbours passive

You are forgetting a small, but important detail: space to expand with adequate amount of habitable planets. Not every game will give you Baol with dozen planets you can expand to, while almost every game will give you 2 systems for anchorages, and some non-FE/horde neigbour (hopefuly, non-gestalt, too - provided, you don't play one).

Originally posted by Nightmyre:

and then just focus on research and pop growth.

Check pop numbers for the first 40 years (while there was no market and I still expanded). That was me only growing main species in next-to-0 habitability conditions with rationing (I did use 1k food on capital a few times, but still), yet you won't get close to those growth numbers, unless you re-colonize a several habitats (or a bunch of planets).

You are, of course, free to play however you feel comfortable, all I'm saying is that it's not in the realm of impossibility to use military to get that research on an adequate level. Obviously, military-focused empire has to lead you by like 30% in science output to get to exactly same spot in tech, instead of being even, or lagging a bit behind, but extra level of repeatables will, likely, be compensated by other means (like firerate).