Hive mind/machines vs lack of ecumenopolis

[Grinch]

Anyone can tell me if it is still fun to play these empires even without ability to build ecumenopolis? I mean ecumenopolis is the powerhouse of your empire producing most of your alloys and consumer goods, I know i can still design a planet specifically to produce it, but i would like to hear an opinion if it can compete with ecumenopolis.

[Half Phased]

Yes, they can keep up. Hive worlds offer similar buffs to production and with Hive Minds explosive growth they can surpass the economy of standard empires.

[Astasia]

Originally posted by Half Phased:

Hive worlds offer similar buffs to production

They really don't. Hive/Machine Worlds are like the opposite of Ecumenopolis, they have a much smaller buff and with a focus on basic resources instead of advanced ones. They absolutely do not compete with Ecumenopolis, but gestalts have other strengths to keep them competitive. Not needing building slots for consumer goods for example means they can produce a lot more alloys all over the place.

[Half Phased]

Originally posted by Astasia:

Originally posted by Half Phased:

Hive worlds offer similar buffs to production

They really don't. Hive/Machine Worlds are like the opposite of Ecumenopolis, they have a much smaller buff and with a focus on basic resources instead of advanced ones. They absolutely do not compete with Ecumenopolis, but gestalts have other strengths to keep them competitive. Not needing building slots for consumer goods for example means they can produce a lot more alloys all over the place.

They give a +10% to production, not a 20%. It’s not as good a boost, but it’s still better than nothing. Note I said “buff to production” and not “all round perks”.

And you can still turn a hive world into an alloy hub, just be prepared to pay for it in dust motes. It’s a lot easier now to actually do so, since the insane need for maintenance depots hive minds used to experience has been removed, thanks to hive districts granting maintenance drone jobs.

[Astasia]

I would consider the district mechanics of each as part of their production buffs, I mean that determines how much of what they can produce. I didn't mention the more important buff of Ecumenopolis, the +50% pop growth, as that's not production even though it's so vital to what they are.

[Half Phased]

Originally posted by Astasia:

I would consider the district mechanics of each as part of their production buffs, I mean that determines how much of what they can produce. I didn't mention the more important buff of Ecumenopolis, the +50% pop growth, as that's not production even though it's so vital to what they are.

For a hive mind, that 50% bonus to pop growth is standard and on every planet, with the straight boost from being a hive mind and the better nutritional policy (at least for growth rate). The only thing hive minds don’t have going for them is the encourage planetary growth decision.

[Astasia]

Like I said, gestalts have other strengths that keep them competitive. My point is only that hive worlds absolutely are not a replacement to ecumenopolis, not even close. The game is moving more and more away from symmetrical gameplay, which is a good thing.

[Bazinga]

Machines require no food, no consumer goods... meaning every district/tile is directed instead to alloys/mining etc

With the new changes to sprawl, it's made machines overpowered...

No habitability worries, meaning you can colonise 20 planets, build the machine shop and transfer every single pop from these worlds to your more established worlds without any negative modifiers. You can do this with any empire, but machines do it faster.

Doing this properly and microing will snowball and make every other empire a complete joke by 2300 or sooner... Pumping pops into energy/mineral rich worlds with no negative modifiers.
Ring worlds? Fully pop them in a few years and churn out over 3600 research per section... Sprawl means nothing since you now have so many spare tiles NOT being spent on CG's etc and instead on administrative buildings/special resources, go nuts!

Same goes for alloys and what not, becomes even more of an exponential joke when everything becomes a machine world in 10 years and you have 20+ mega alloy foundries per world cranking out more than you can spend with full mineral production. No tiles wasted on consumer goods etc.

The fact that the above is so fast means that a Dyson Sphere and Matter Decomp is obtainable far quicker, meaning even more exponential growth.

Immortal leaders, Scientists and Governors?

Yeah... I think Machines are far more powerful than the Ecumonopolis.

[Garslock]

Originally posted by Bazinga:

Machines require no food, no consumer goods... meaning every district/tile is directed instead to alloys/mining etc

With the new changes to sprawl, it's made machines overpowered...

No habitability worries, meaning you can colonise 20 planets, build the machine shop and transfer every single pop from these worlds to your more established worlds without any negative modifiers. You can do this with any empire, but machines do it faster.

Doing this properly and microing will snowball and make every other empire a complete joke by 2300 or sooner... Pumping pops into energy/mineral rich worlds with no negative modifiers.
Ring worlds? Fully pop them in a few years and churn out over 3600 research per section... Sprawl means nothing since you now have so many spare tiles NOT being spent on CG's etc and instead on administrative buildings/special resources, go nuts!

Same goes for alloys and what not, becomes even more of an exponential joke when everything becomes a machine world in 10 years and you have 20+ mega alloy foundries per world cranking out more than you can spend with full mineral production. No tiles wasted on consumer goods etc.

The fact that the above is so fast means that a Dyson Sphere and Matter Decomp is obtainable far quicker, meaning even more exponential growth.

Immortal leaders, Scientists and Governors?

Yeah... I think Machines are far more powerful than the Ecumonopolis.

I am going to try a machine in my next play, I am curious though, how do you supply all the motes to the foundry worlds? Do you mainly buy what you need of the market at extreme prices or dedicate other worlds to producing motes with the excessive mineral income? can you make that much energy that the price of strat resources means little?

On my last run I went full synth ascension and ended up spending 7-11k on monthly trades to buy strat resources, I can only imagine not having the Ecumonopolis means buying even more of these resources? Granted in that game I am talking about its the year 2500 and its been over for some time since I forced everyone into the one federation lmao.

[Shadow Raven]

Originally posted by Spudz:

I am going to try a machine in my next play, I am curious though, how do you supply all the motes to the foundry worlds? Do you mainly buy what you need of the market at extreme prices or dedicate other worlds to producing motes with the excessive mineral income? can you make that much energy that the price of strat resources means little?

On my last run I went full synth ascension and ended up spending 7-11k on monthly trades to buy strat resources, I can only imagine not having the Ecumonopolis means buying even more of these resources? Granted in that game I am talking about its the year 2500 and its been over for some time since I forced everyone into the one federation lmao.

To answer the Mote question.
First, you make this special Chemicals Hive World/Machine World. Which reduce Upkeep of Chemical plants such as the Mote production, Gas production, and Crystal production by 10%, which stacks with the tradition (And civic for Machine Empire). And gain a +10% production of them by the Hive World itself (And Machine World).
The Districts should focus on Mineral Production, and supply enough Nexus Districts to give enough Amenities for the workers.
That way you can get tons of the three craftable rare resources without problems, and still earn more Minerals over it.
One such world can usually supply 1 and a half foundry hive world / machine world. Up to 2 worlds.
And same with Hive Foundry / Machine Foundry Worlds, they should focus on the Mineral Districts to fuel the Mineral appetite of the production.

However compared to a single Ecumenopolis, they are babies.
A single Ecumenpolis, with 25 slots, can have 28 Districts (With Masters of Nature).
With 10 Housing Districts, we get 240 Houses, 100 Clerk Jobs, which costs 50 Energy in Upkeep, with the -20% upkeep cost, it is only 40 Energy.
The Clerk Jobs will produce 200 Amenities +20% of the Ecumenopolis, and with the Charismatic trait another +20% which becomes 280 Amenities.

18 Alloy Foundry Districts.
For 90 Energy and 36 Motes -20% Upkeep for a total of 72 Energy and 29.8 Motes.
This gives 180 Housing, and 180 Alloy Foundry Jobs.

Remember; A Ecumenopolis gets 20% increased production, +15% of the Ministy of Production, +15% from Military Economy (For Alloys).
So when you build a Single Chemical Plant you make 10 Minerals into 3.8 Motes.

So the 1180 Minerals for the Alloy production, and roughly 80-90 minerals for the 8-9 Chemical Plants, should not be a huge problem. Specially since you can Build Multiple Matter Decompressors.

But compared to Hive Worlds and Machine Worlds, they can't even scratch the surface of what a Single Ecumenopolis gives.

In one of my games, I have 1 Ecumenopolis, I am on year 2399. And I nearly have it fully up and running, and I have a second one on the works, I don't even need to touch the market place for any resources.

[Gakm4]

Originally posted by Shadow Raven:

To answer the Mote question.
First, you make this special Chemicals Hive World/Machine World. Which reduce Upkeep of Chemical plants such as the Mote production, Gas production, and Crystal production by 10%, which stacks with the tradition (And civic for Machine Empire). And gain a +10% production of them by the Hive World itself (And Machine World).

It is actually better to not use the refinery world and instead use a mineral focus most of the time as a Gestalt Consciousness if you have their specific worlds which you should have anyhow.

Refinery world reduces the mineral cost by 1 mineral per building while with mining world you get 1.6 (2 with rock breaker/mining build) extra minerals per district. If you have a machine/hive world you can specialize worlds easily so you can drop down 2-3 nexus districts and the rest being mining as well as 13-14 mote/gas/crystal buildings on that planet and as long as you have 9-10 mining districts you will be making a mineral surplus.

It is worth it do to forge/tech worlds once you upgrade the buildings to tier 2 but before that keep with your generator/mining/agriculture worlds. Now this will all change for normal worlds where you do not have freeform districts like you do for hive/machine worlds but even then it may be good to look at the available districts to figure out your designations.

Edit: I forgot to take into account that hive minds get 3 mining jobs from mining districts instead of 2 so they gain +2.4 minerals per district. With that the numbers get even better for them so you only need 6 mining districts to make a profit.