Regenerative Hull Tissue in 2.0

[Xyuni]

I was just playing the 2.0 and amassed a fleet that equips only regenerative hull tissue and can't help but noticed it's slightly over powered.

First of all, shields daily hull regen is +1.2 (I) , +1.6(II) , +2.1(III)

Regenerative hull Tissue is +2 Hull, +1 Armor daily.

Shields require power to use, so if you do not have Regeneration hull, you only get 1-3 Regen per day depending on the class of shields you equip.

Where as if you equip Regen Hull Tissue 1 slot is 3 HP per day, and 2 slot is 6 HP per day (with no power cost). Together with shields you get 3HP + 1-3HP per day, Armor and Regen Tissue so I figured you could potentially mix armor, regen tissue and some shields for an effective regen of 5 HP per day and above at least.

On a cruiser class or battleship, you can get up to 8HP regen per day.
Another advantage on this is that you never need to send your ships for repairs.

A tad too powerful don't you think?

Why is Regen Hull Tissue which does not cost any power to use have a regeneration rate that exceed shields? Something's wrong with this logic. METAL regrows faster than force fields?

[Azunai]

the balance of A slots is pretty poor now. afterburners are my goto item now. faster sublight speed is always useful.

guess shield capacitors or the improved tracking thingy might also have a use in mostly defensive fleets, but for any fleet that needs to travel anywhere, afterburners bonus movespeed trumps the other advantages.

[corisai]

It's total crap and useless, especially on corvettes (and destroyers are mostly useless by themselves now).

In same time living metal is quite powerfull and you should go war for it.

Originally posted by Azunai:

but for any fleet that needs to travel anywhere, afterburners bonus movespeed trumps the other advantages.

This why we should stick with vettes in early-mid game and build gate network for BB in late game.

And tracking is better then current shield capacitor. Enigmatic still very, very nice thing to have.

Originally posted by Krovoc:

Yeah, G weapons bypass shields, but they are only equip-able on two ship classes, mitigated by PD, and won't, by themselves take down your entire fleet, or even likely a single ship if you're cafeful.

AI simply can't use them well. Massed vettes with missiles (not torpedoes) won easily against entire fleet of PD destroyers :)

[NixBoxDone]

I'd say it's actually viable for actual combat purposes now.

Let's face it: before 2.0, regenerative hull tissue was basically a noob trap, as was anything that wasn't shield capacitors for anything but niche purposes.

It just couldn't do squat when compared to a module that not only enables shield regen but also boosts it significantly, allowing you to regen up to thousands of effective HP during the course of a battle.

What did hull regen offer? A very low percentage regen modifier PER MONTH. So little that even on huge hulking brutes like the dreadnought the regenerative effect amounted to maybe a couple dozen points during any given engagement under anything but very specific circumstances.

You might argue that you didn't need repairs, but that was also mostly a moot point because pre 2.0 most fights ended in one engagement. You won that, pasted the enemy fleet and the war was pretty much over, repair or no repair. You lost that, the war was pretty much over as well, cuz you likely lost far too many ships to build up to being competitive again before the enemy got 100 % warscore and just forced you to submit.


Now, on the other hand, regenerative hull tissue repairs a number of HP and armor per day. It's still not anywhere near as huge an amount as shield regen with the shield capacitor used to give you, but with hull integrity having effects on your actual ship performance it still matters enough during combat ops that having them on cruisers, battleships or titans actually makes a difference.

It now actually has a niche (combat repairs during battle for bigger hulls, while afterburners give more evasion as damage avoidance for smaller hulls and tracking is available for dedicated anti corvette destroyers/cruisers).

Instead of arguing that this relatively minor but nice combat bonus be nerfed, I'd argue we should instead ask for shield capacitor and other modules to be brought up to rival it instead.
I wouldn't want shield capacitors to be returned to their old stats (they were just best in slot for pretty much anything, ever, forever, barring really specific fleet setups), but they need some TLC for sure. Afterburners are actually fine now - a nice buff to evasion and speed so small hulls can get up close and personal in time to matter, somewhat nerfing battleship only artillery predominance.

[corisai]

Originally posted by NixBoxDone:

Instead of arguing that this relatively minor but nice combat bonus be nerfed, I'd argue we should instead ask for shield capacitor and other modules to be brought up to rival it instead.

Problem that we have Living metal. And compared with this regen tissue is total crap. So why waste RP and minerals on it? Except very rare cases like fanatic purifiers with constant wars.

[NixBoxDone]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by NixBoxDone:

Instead of arguing that this relatively minor but nice combat bonus be nerfed, I'd argue we should instead ask for shield capacitor and other modules to be brought up to rival it instead.

Problem that we have Living metal. And compared with this regen tissue is total crap. So why waste RP and minerals on it? Except very rare cases like fanatic purifiers with constant wars.

Because it stacks, of course. Living metal, emergency repair admiral and regenerative hull tissue, maybe swarm civic make armor/hull focused ships very, very robust. They also allow you to toss researching repeatable shields (so you can instead focus on weapons) and make enemy dedicated anti-shield weapons such as missiles, disruptors and projectile weapons laughably inefficient.

On their own they're nice, when worked around (or with a little luck and aid from big brother dragon and its shiny dragon scales) it can be devastating.

[corisai]

Originally posted by NixBoxDone:

Living metal AND emergency repair admiral make all armor/hull ships very, very robust.

Fixed your post. :)

Fixed 1-2 points over % bonus is totally neglible (especially for BB&titans).

And you're right, armor&hull tank with 1 shield gen is best way for BB in endgame now (ignoring early FE fights, some AE and crisis events obliviously, but they're cheaters).

[NixBoxDone]

Yep. I'm generally more in favour of adding MORE op stuff to games so there's more options rather than nerfing what seems op.

It's always better to have multiple options (go for a full armor/massive regen fleet or maybe go psionic and have a cool all shield/massive incoming damage reduction fleet?) over just having all options nerfed until they're meh and interchangeable.

That's harder to do of course so I don't really hold it against devs if they're not into it, but it's my preferred state.

I'd love if the shield capacitor was instead switched with something that gave shields the percentage damage reduction instead, for example. So you'd have the choice between regenerating ablative armor or a shield that absorbs a certain percentage of damage altogether.

[corisai]

Originally posted by NixBoxDone:

massive incoming damage reduction fleet?

Originally posted by NixBoxDone:

I'd love if the shield capacitor was instead switched with something that gave shields the percentage damage reduction instead, for example.

It's impossible to balance. In every game DR either completely useless or completely OP.

No, better more buffs for shield then this.

P.S. I really want to see some passive flat damage reduction from armor (AKA nerf of low-damage small guns vs cap ships).

[NixBoxDone]

I get what you mean. I just think shields and armor need to have something that really distinguishes them from one another, where currently it's just "which weapon does this HP bar take bonus damage from?".

That said, you do realize that evasion is kinda the same thing as armor, right? It's a percentage damage reduction, differing only in that instead of lowering all incoming damage (except where bypassing) to 20ish %, it instead dodges 8 of 10 incoming attacks.
It's less consistent but otherwise works around the same idea of reducing incoming damage by percentages rather than flat numbers.
Different mechanic, similar result.

Maybe that could be the shield thing though: instead of just giving shields, either have shield modules grant bonus evasion or have armor reduce evasion due to slowing ships down and making them easier targets.
That'd also make tracking/accuracy more effective vs. smaller hulls and would make realistic sense, as a heavily armored opponent or vehicle is likely to be less agile (yes, even in space, momentum still has to be shed before you can turn allowing smaller ships to turn on a dime where bigger more armored ones need to have oversized engines just to keep up with travel speed, never mind evasive maneuvers).
It'd incentivise stacking armor on bigger hulls that can't really utilize evasion anyways... Not that that would be a big change.

[Snips]

Originally posted by Krovoc:

Over powered? No. Under powered? No? Under powered is an Under statement. That's terrible.

edit: Consider how many hit points (armor + shield + hull) a battle ship has. Now divide that by 8.

then they use them in corvetes and destroyers they are more flagile so with on the go heal corvetes and destroyers would be less dead

[Armchair Civilian]

i deffo don't think that hull tissue is OP.
Personally i prefer living metal, which doesn't take up an A slot.

Mind you, i'm not a fan of the hair shirt, "ban fun, it's OP" mentality either :P

[NixBoxDone]

It's a trade-off, really. Hull tissue has much less of an impact during the fight (as it has a limited regen per day of 1 and 2 respectively for hull and armor) but makes up for it by allowing your ships to regenerate quickly between fights.

Anyone who has had to spend valuable war exhaustion due to having to send ships back to repair, suffer losses during battle or idling next to a conquered starbase until it respawns for on-the-spot repairs knows that's a pain.

Shields on the other hand can rapidly regenerate during battle, each individual shield module has a significant amount of regen per tick, compounded by the shield capacitor which adds another 50 % on top.

This makes shields much more effective at soaking battle damage than armor or hull while also allowing you to go into battles with at least one health bar full due to recharging shields even if there's only a few days between fights.

Secret winner are crystalline plating and tissue+living metal for hull repair though, as most weapons have no bonus damage to hull and no weapon can bypass hulls (whereas there are weapons that bypass shields or shields and armor).

[Markus Reese]

Originally posted by Krovoc:

Originally posted by northernwater:

Space magic. Why do slugs and turtles fly space ships? Space magic.

No. It doesn't regen faster. Shields regen 10% per day by default.

This is the aspect people are missing. The shields come back rapidly after a fight. The regen hull armor is constant rate regardless making a fight where enemy is consistently countering a relevant threat.

As others said, useful on small ships with low levels of HP. On an offensive war, take an enemy station as soon as possible for forward repair of larger ships.

[The entire freaking Soviet Union]

Never really liked regenerative hull tissue.. it feels too passive, sure it can heal ships but at an extremely slow pace compared to getting them fixed at a space station.

In the endgame you don't really have the time to wait a year for your ships to heal themselves and if you've came out of battle, you probably lost a few ships so you'll need to build more to keep the fleet up.

Feel like the slots wasted on regenerative tissue could go to targeting, shields or armour.

.. Also, isn't living metal the better alternative? Cant remember if thats just a special resource or has some hull research behind it.

[NixBoxDone]

Living metal is a strategic resource so you can't bet on getting it, but it also stacks with hull tissue so if you run both you benefit a lot more than if you run one.
Not only that but living metal is percentage based so when you get it you want to stack as much hull and armor as possible to get the most out of it anyways.

As to targeting, shields or armor: the hull tissue takes up an aux slot or two so the only alternative really is shield capacitor (which I never really liked that much because shields can be bypassed or melted with such things as auto cannons) or targeting bonus. If you build your ships right you won't need the targeting bonus because your big ships should fire on targets that have no or negligible evasion anyways and your smaller ships should run weapons with high tracking and accuracy.

You could put the targeting computer on your small ships but that'd probably be overkill.