Not Sure If I should Play This Game Anymore: Overpowered Awakened Empires

[Arcane Teuton]

So this was my first run. It's on normal difficulty. I was preparing a giant fleet just in case the awakened empire decided to attack. They did, even though I was at positive 10 with them. This was year 2460, 40 years before I won. They attacked out of the blue, but I was ready for them. I hid my 200k power federation + my own fleet of some of the top of the line ships with all of the upgrades (not all of the +5% upgrades but most of them) and I camped out at a base fully stacked with defense systems and modules, plus I had enabled every war edict that uses the special materials. I had four empires in my federation, I was ready. I had war ascension perks, especially the one that helps me against awakened empires.

Then, I have no idea what happened. They sent one, ONE 100k power fleet, and it decimated everything. They decimated everything and are now demanding I become a satellite.


So, clearly the game's numbers lied to me, and everything is for naught. 44 hours, and this game just destroys everything I had. I can't even run my federation anymore.


Someone, give me ONE reason why I should keep playing this game and sink another 40 hours into a small game. I'm ready to delete my save and just uninstall the game.

I know I probably made some minor/moderate mistakes somewhere, but nothing that is worth a singular 100k power fleet destroying my entire high tech army. I've had challenging battles with empires before, but this is different. This genuinely seems like the developers didn't know how to balance things properly and they don't want my empire to actually be independent and free from the awakened empire with such fervor that they are willing to implement horrible imbalances to do so. I didn't sign up for this. I spent hours managing multiple planets where unemployment always happened despite there always being jobs. Either specialists were too stubborn to stoop down, or people were too damn impatient for the buildings to finish building.



Now that I type this out, I believe I can disable awakened empires. Is that what I need to do? Is that the absolute requirement in order to actually play this game? The only way I see defeating an awakened empire to be even slightly possible if you were full time intentional allies with 5 other friends and all attacked them at your peak power at once. So that makes this game impossible if you are playing it yourself and you decide to have a fallen empire.

[Elitewrecker PT]

The numbers are at best a rough indicator. If you were using full anti-hull weapons against their huge amount of shields, you'd be wasting a lot of time just getting rid of their shields.
Also, if you were having a prolonged fight without flak you probably took a lot of damage from their bombers.

[_ALuX_]

In order to disable awakened empires you would have to (somehow) destroy them before they awaken (which would require you to push back or outright disable the endgame crisis) or disable fallen empires from spawning altogether.

Also the numbers are not always indicative of whether or not you have an actual advantage. Fallen/Awakened empires have ships that are always more powerful and are usually equipped with tech that is unique to them (for reference, their dark matter reactor is the best reactor in an unmodded game and their dark matter deflector is the second best in the game, behind the psionic shields) despite being able to be reverse-engineered. So their ships are already more powerful, and that isn't even going into the finer details like whatever bonuses awakened empires are usually given. Situations like this even apply to fighting standard empires, crisis, leviathans, or the horde. The best you can do really is retool your warships to be able to defend against what they usually throw at you. I personally don't disturb these giant hornet nests because I feel like these empires really weren't meant to be attacked except as a means to challenge the player or for situations like Wars in Heaven (Levianthans DLC) to play out. Hopefully this helps.

[EleventhStar]

100k losing against 200k+ is a bit odd but can be explained depending on the context (e.g. if you use a lot of missiles and they have a lot of point defense). Awakened empires also have extra strong ships and have 5 of every 5% repeatable tech. so yeah they are hard, especially once they get up and running. they are a major end game event for a reason, they mess stuff up.

But it's important to remember that becoming their satellite doesn't mean you have lost. Bide your time, wait for them to become decadent and lazy, then break free.

[Arcane Teuton]

Originally posted by EleventhStar:

100k losing against 200k+ is a bit odd but can be explained depending on the context (e.g. if you use a lot of missiles and they have a lot of point defense). Awakened empires also have extra strong ships and have 5 of every 5% repeatable tech. so yeah they are hard, especially once they get up and running.

But it's important to remember that becoming their satellite doesn't mean you have lost. Bide your time, wait for them to become decadent and lazy, then break free.

My ships were tailored to counter theirs, but maybe I missed some specifics somewhere. Perhaps I need to look specifically at online guides in incredible depth. Which isn't very fun, but oh well.

Plus, there's 40 years before the end of the game. I'm not recovering from that. I'd be better just starting over and I guess appeasing them somehow and hoping the game's numbers actually make them respect me enough not to attack me. I didn't give them the scientist they asked 300 years ago, so maybe that's why they attacked me now. (The wiki says they will demand your technology, but they didn't for me. They just attacked me outright, despite having +10 with them.)

[Elitewrecker PT]

What about the end-game crisis?

[Arcane Teuton]

Originally posted by _ALuX_:

In order to disable awakened empires you would have to (somehow) destroy them before they awaken (which would require you to push back or outright disable the endgame crisis) or disable fallen empires from spawning altogether.

Also the numbers are not always indicative of whether or not you have an actual advantage. Fallen/Awakened empires have ships that are always more powerful and are usually equipped with tech that is unique to them (for reference, their dark matter reactor is the best reactor in an unmodded game and their dark matter deflector is the second best in the game, behind the psionic shields) despite being able to be reverse-engineered. So their ships are already more powerful, and that isn't even going into the finer details like whatever bonuses awakened empires are usually given. Situations like this even apply to fighting standard empires, crisis, leviathans, or the horde. The best you can do really is retool your warships to be able to defend against what they usually throw at you. I personally don't disturb these giant hornet nests because I feel like these empires really weren't meant to be attacked except as a means to challenge the player or for situations like Wars in Heaven (Levianthans DLC) to play out. Hopefully this helps.

I figured they were more powerful which is why I camped at a citadel fully decked out with buffs and turrets, and I didn't expect them to do so well against 5 empires united near end game in a federation when their expansion was limited. But then again, my fellow empires sucked. All they gave me were corvettes (Which are useful but I had to disband so many of them to make room for other ships which I had to make myself. Plus I had to upgrade every single ship with my own resources.) Additionally, they only sent 12k forces at a time. They didn't prepare like I did. This is probably why people always choose to kill everyone instead of ally with them...


I'm intrigued what the end game event is, so I don't want to kill or disable them outright.


I didn't want to disturb them either, but despite having +10 relation with me, they decided to attack me anyway. (Or was it +30? I know I saw the number 30 somewhere.) I assumed they would like, demand my tech or something, but they just wanted to attack me first, ask me to be their satellite later.

Maybe they hated me because I didn't give them that scientist 300 years earlier. It also didn't help that they were positioned literally right next to my empire.


Is there ANY way to defeat an awakened empire? Preferably outside of taking advantages of the limitations of AI and cheesing them, and instead based on army composition and other strategic means? Although I was very well prepared, I had everything researched except for all of the +5's. I had VI shields and III just about everything else though.

[Elitewrecker PT]

Of course there is. One possibility is using only cloud lightning and arc emitters for the shield/armor bypass because FE/AE ships have low hull but tons of shields.

[EleventhStar]

Originally posted by Tarnil Corvax:

My ships were tailored to counter theirs, but maybe I missed some specifics somewhere. Perhaps I need to look specifically at online guides in incredible depth. Which isn't very fun, but oh well.

Plus, there's 40 years before the end of the game. I'm not recovering from that. I'd be better just starting over and I guess appeasing them somehow and hoping the game's numbers actually make them respect me enough not to attack me. I didn't give them the scientist they asked 300 years ago, so maybe that's why they attacked me now. (The wiki says they will demand your technology, but they didn't for me. They just attacked me outright, despite having +10 with them.)

i didnt beat them on my first go either man. heck i could barely hold of regular empires on my first few games.

but honestly i think this is one of the strenghts of stellaris (and a couple of other games), that they have these types of mid and end game events that try to address the snowball effect you often see in these games.

now ofcourse, if you are anything like me, in your next game you might want to go for ye good olde pre emptive strike.


another good way to deal with this issue is to change the mid/end game start years, that way you have more time to prepare. i personally also just turn victory year off, on the offchance i play that long.

[ButtonPrince]

Hate to tell you this, but the reason the fallen empire awakened was BECAUSE you built up your fleet super big. If you were 40 years away from the end they wouldnt have bothered you if you hadn't geared up to fight them.

Awakened empires are difficult to beat even under the best conditions. You basically need them to have been awake for a long time to have a chance of beating them normally. If you can kill a fallen empire though awakened empires get much much easier.

[Arcane Teuton]

Originally posted by ButtonPrince:

Hate to tell you this, but the reason the fallen empire awakened was BECAUSE you built up your fleet super big. If you were 40 years away from the end they wouldnt have bothered you if you hadn't geared up to fight them.

Awakened empires are difficult to beat even under the best conditions. You basically need them to have been awake for a long time to have a chance of beating them normally. If you can kill a fallen empire though awakened empires get much much easier.

They first awoke around 100-50 years before that 40 year mark, but I see your point.
Also that's good to know, but now I wonder how I can prevent building my fleet super big. You see, federations automatically supply corvettes. Is there a way I can make them stop? Because I was figuring that they would do something nasty near end game so I wanted to prepare for them. Even if I saw them as peaceful, I'd flesh out the army to be more than corvettes just cause because my faction members keep sending them.

Also, do you know of a way to tell your federation exactly which ships to construct and how much of them? Their corvette spam is really annoying, and when I disband the unneeded ones I feel like I'm wasting their resources.

" You basically need them to have been awake for a long time to have a chance of beating them normally."
What exactly do you mean by this? If they are awakened, they become weaker over time?

Also what do you mean by this:
"If you can kill a fallen empire though awakened empires get much much easier."
Do you just mean because I'd become more experienced with fighting their technology, or because they drop technology that would help me to defeat an empire that awakened later?



Also, final question: How do I kill them as a fallen empire if I can't build up a fleet large enough to do so without them awakening?

[Arcane Teuton]

Originally posted by EleventhStar:

Originally posted by Tarnil Corvax:

My ships were tailored to counter theirs, but maybe I missed some specifics somewhere. Perhaps I need to look specifically at online guides in incredible depth. Which isn't very fun, but oh well.

Plus, there's 40 years before the end of the game. I'm not recovering from that. I'd be better just starting over and I guess appeasing them somehow and hoping the game's numbers actually make them respect me enough not to attack me. I didn't give them the scientist they asked 300 years ago, so maybe that's why they attacked me now. (The wiki says they will demand your technology, but they didn't for me. They just attacked me outright, despite having +10 with them.)

i didnt beat them on my first go either man. heck i could barely hold of regular empires on my first few games.

but honestly i think this is one of the strenghts of stellaris (and a couple of other games), that they have these types of mid and end game events that try to address the snowball effect you often see in these games.

now ofcourse, if you are anything like me, in your next game you might want to go for ye good olde pre emptive strike.


another good way to deal with this issue is to change the mid/end game start years, that way you have more time to prepare. i personally also just turn victory year off, on the offchance i play that long.

I'm more upset that it wasn't a valiant, tough but fair battle. If it went back and forth, losses on both sides, kept me on the edge of my seat, that wouldn't garnered a different response. However, I prepared heavily for them and they just steamrolled me like nothing. Plus, I wasn't expecting something like that on a normal game.

You mention turning victory year off. How do you win then? Is it just impossible to win then? Or is there a super cool feature that allows you to play until a certain year, and if you have the highest score you can claim victory. I doubt that's a thing, it sounds like it would be very innovative but probably something not included. So I imagine you just sit there and never win?


As for the pre-emptive strike, I can try, but I wanted to let them live in peace. I always like it when people try to backstab me and then I destroy them. That's why I was preparing and cautiously waiting. But I had no idea the knife was near invincible technology.

But that brings up the question... If I only get strong enough to kill their fallen empire by the time they become awoken, how do I pre-emptively strike? And I also heard that building a big fleet means that they awaken, so how do I pre-emptively strike?

[Elitewrecker PT]

You can't tell federation members what to do build.

Yes, AEs have the decadence mechanic.

A mechanic affecting awakened Fallen Empires to prevent them from permanently deciding the fate of weaker empires, decadence slowly weakens their ascendancy and makes it possible to temporarily submit to a Fallen Empire, only to throw it off later when their success has blinded them.

Decadence starts 20 years after a Fallen Empire has awakened
It increases monthly and accumulates faster the larger the awakened empire is and the more subjects it has
It also seems to not accumulate while the awakened empire is guardian of the galaxy
The chance for Decadence gain is rolled monthly, with the chance scaled based on the size of the awakened empire and it's vassals (+0.5% per planet).
Every Time the chance is rolled, decadence increases by 2.
maximum decadence is 100, which impacts the following penalties:
-66% Job Resource Production
x2 Vassal opinion penalty for having less fleet power than all of them combined
-25% Ship Weapon Damage, Ship HP and Shield HP (plus potential penalties from lack of resources)

Due to the tech you get yes.

[Elitewrecker PT]

They'll only have a possibility of awakening after you pass 50k fleet power but even after that it'll take on average around 50 years for them awaken (~25 if you pass 75k).
That's your preemptive strike window. Try to build enough 75-100k fleet power in less than 25 years and attack.
BUT, if you take any of their worlds then it's basically guaranteed for another FE to awaken ~5 years later.

[Arcane Teuton]

Originally posted by Elitewrecker PT:

They'll only have a possibility of awakening after you pass 50k fleet power but even after that it'll take on average around 50 years for them awaken (~25 if you pass 75k).
That's your preemptive strike window. Try to build enough 75-100k fleet power in less than 25 years and attack.
BUT, if you take any of their worlds then it's basically guaranteed for another FE to awaken ~5 years later.

Thanks man, I love the specifics you go into. Makes things much more easy to grasp.

I feel ready to tackle them again. Or at least more prepared for failure.


Question: Do you know what state of decadence they are in at any given time? Can you check?

Also, you can't bribe them with resources to get them to like you, right?

What do you mean by "makes it possible for them to submit to a fallen empire"? So does that mean there need to be at least 2 fallen empires in the game, so that the awoken one can submit to the fallen one? And what does that do?


What determines who is the guardian of the galaxy?


As for the federation thing, can I at least tell them to not build ANYTHING? Or is there a way to make it so they give me only a certain amount of corvettes, and I can increase the number they build for the army later? I can handle building the other ships, but I want to tell them when to build so they don't throw me off.

Also, is there a more cost effective way of getting ships besides just disbanding them?

[Elitewrecker PT]

What do you mean by "makes it possible for them to submit to a fallen empire"? So does that mean there need to be at least 2 fallen empires in the game, so that the awoken one can submit to the fallen one? And what does that do?

That's just a typo in the wiki page. They mean if you're not in a position to defeat the Awakened Empire at that point, you can become their vassal (or their specific version of vassal depending on ethic), wait a couple decades for them to become decadent and then revolt.
You might be able to see the decadence level by examining their ships (assuming you can see third party bonuses to ship stats) like you can for yours, or maybe their planets production.

It's random, but they have to be materialists, xenophiles or the machine fallen empire.


I haven't done much federation gameplay but I'm fairly sure no, the AI just builds whatever they want whenever they want, for the fleet.

"Also, is there a more cost effective way of getting ships besides just disbanding them? " What do you mean?