Military Strength?

[randallj]

When I play, the AI always has much larger military fleets than I. I use Supremacy tradition to gain +10% fleet size, I research techs to gain fleet size, but when I encounter other races they always have fleets way larger and stronger than mine. For example, I had a militaristic race next to me that declared it would squash me (not a Fallen race), and the game said we had equivalent fleet sizes. So I said, sure bring it on. They show up with 50 corvettes and half a dozen troop transports and my fleet capacity is only 19. So I am sporting somewhere in the range of 600 strength and they have 2100. Since there is no combat tactics whatsoever other than the one with the biggest wins, I get slaughtered, game over. Not fun.

What am I missing? How do you hope to compete militarily?

[Tex]

Don't trust the game's measure of strength. If it says equivalent it means its within 3000 fleet power higher or lower than you.

It's quite easy to always be more powerful than the AI. Go over your fleet cap. I am always at least 100 over my fleet cap in the first 30 years. I spam energy buildings to compensate.

[Financmajster]

equivalent fleet power means that enemy can have 50-150% of your fleet power i believe. To increase fleet capacity you need to build spaceports and upgrade them, it really helps a lot...

[RandomDude]

When in the contacts screen, click on the "relative power" tab. The empires will be ordered in strength of fleet power so you can gauge whether your fleet is stronger or weaker than your opponent, even if both are showing as equivalent. Whoever is higher on the list is stronger.

[galadon3]

Well given those numbers its pretty early on in the game, the AI tends to overmilitarize in the first part of the game. It usually looses some steam down the road.
Try to build up your fleets more and especially your economy so you are able to pay for that fleet. Its not a problem to go over fleet-cap a bit, its a soft cap, going over it will make the upkeep of your fleet somewhat more expensive but thats actually how the AI manages those numbers.

For Traditions go Expansion, Prosperity or Harmony first, since some of their boni help with building up your economy/early colonization. (I myself prefer unlocking harmony, then complete expansion tree, then rest of prosperity, then harmony. But it ofc depends on your playstyle and game-settings a lot).

[JustADude]

Originally posted by BasedLordTrump:

Don't trust the game's measure of strength. If it says equivalent it means its within 3000 fleet power higher or lower than you.

It's quite easy to always be more powerful than the AI. Go over your fleet cap. I am always at least 100 over my fleet cap in the first 30 years. I spam energy buildings to compensate.

Originally posted by galadon3:

Well given those numbers its pretty early on in the game, the AI tends to overmilitarize in the first part of the game. It usually looses some steam down the road.
Try to build up your fleets more and especially your economy so you are able to pay for that fleet. Its not a problem to go over fleet-cap a bit, its a soft cap, going over it will make the upkeep of your fleet somewhat more expensive but thats actually how the AI manages those numbers.

For Traditions go Expansion, Prosperity or Harmony first, since some of their boni help with building up your economy/early colonization. (I myself prefer unlocking harmony, then complete expansion tree, then rest of prosperity, then harmony. But it ofc depends on your playstyle and game-settings a lot).

this is the only way to keep up in the first 50-100 yrs. i once started a game and switched to observer mode to learn more about how the AI thinks, and the only possible way to keep up is to ignore the fleet cap. you should always improve the cap with tech, traditions, etc when you can, but its not a big deal if you go over it as long as you have plenty of energy being produced.

[Russell]

Originally posted by ObeliskOfficial:

this is the only way to keep up in the first 50-100 yrs. i once started a game and switched to observer mode to learn more about how the AI thinks, and the only possible way to keep up is to ignore the fleet cap. you should always improve the cap with tech, traditions, etc when you can, but its not a big deal if you go over it as long as you have plenty of energy being produced.

That sure explains why I keep getting curb-stomped by the AI.

So if I play as a Pacifist I have to massively over produce a 'slaughter-everything-and-eat-the children-death-fleet-doom-armada' (so large I can't pay for it), just to live?

Isn't that bad game design? And doesn't it also explain all the 'AI Cheats' threads on the forum?

Most new players are going to stick to the fleet limit and asume the AI will to.
Now I'm learning that the AI will always overmilitarize and go beyond the fleet capacity ASAP.
No wonder people are pissed off with the AI. One line in the tutourial could have avoided this "Hey new player! This is the fleet cap. Don't worry about it because the AI sure won't!"


Anyway I've only beaten the game once and I'm now struggling to get pass the beginning of the game because the AI always has a larger fleet than me. Other than the above, does anyone else have any tips for suriving the early game?

[Shad]

Originally posted by Russell:

So if I play as a Pacifist I have to massively over produce a 'slaughter-everything-and-eat-the children-death-fleet-doom-armada' (so large I can't pay for it), just to live?

No, you could also form defensive pacts or join a federation, where allied strength will discourage others from attacking.
But if you are alone, "peace through strength" it is.

Isn't that bad game design?

If you as a militaristic player see were to expand, who would you attack? Of course, the weaker empire with no/few allies. Why wouldn't the AI?

Most new players are going to stick to the fleet limit and asume the AI will to.

True this part needs a better tutorial so that players realise that the fleet limit is a guideline, not a hard cap.

Other than the above, does anyone else have any tips for suriving the early game?

If you don't want many wars, play a diplomatic-related faction (charismatic species, xenophile, pick diplomatic unity perks). That way, most factions you meet (except fanatical purifiers) will be ok with forming NAPs with you (you may need to guarantee a few of them first to build trust). Then you form a massive federation and curbstomp everyone.

[RandomDude]

If your economy won't support more ships, then improve the economy. It's normal to think you should be building research buildings but if you have a nearby enemy that you are competing with, it's wiser to focus on mineral production.

Once you've conquered your first enemy you should have a massive headstart over the rest of the galaxy and you can relax afterwards.

Primitive worlds are a great way to increase your population base/fleet cap and production capacity and they're usually my first target as an aggressive species.

[NixBoxDone]

Several, actually:

- Do unto them first. If your neighbours consistently outgrow your fleet in early game, wait for them to settle a new colony BEFORE either of your fleets can defeat a star port, save up and then spend all your minerals on corvettes just before it finishes and then take the colony before they can build a starport.

As the AI spent the resources on a colony ship, you should have an advantage in corvettes at this point. Keep that advantage by building more corvettes yet (avoid going into the negative) and then just wait out the warscore until you can claim that colony for yourself (you should have chosen it as one of your wargoals when declaring).

Now you have a bigger fleet than that AI empire, one extra colony and hopefully a headstart. The bigger fleet will make AI empires unlikely to attack you without setting you back as you DID get a colony for free.


- Outwork them. One thing you'll note later on is that most of the military civics and traits are relatively worthless.

Sure, getting a higher fleet cap will let you field more ships before they cost extra, but producing 10 to 20 % more resources will also let you do that but won't lock you in - you can spend those extra resources on anything, they're not just a military advantage.

So instead of going with military empires, go with one that goes balls to the balls industrial and just outproduce the enemy.

- Buy yourself an ally.

Just bribe an alien empire that doesn't totally hate you with free research treaties and some free resources, then make a mutual defensive treaty. That should keep you safe until relatively late, when the AIs start federating. At that point you either outpaced the AI, started your own federation or get wrecked, but at least it gives you time.

[The Bored Chairman]

The only time you should really be concerned about relative strength is when Cruisers start showing up, because it's hard to attack another Empire (though not impossible) with Destroyers and Corvettes because Destroyers can be outnumbered 2-1 and Corvettes are easy to destroy and relatively expensive in the early game.

Just keep your fleet strength up and you shouldn't have troubles. Be sure to build Spaceports as early as you can if you have a troublesome neighbour, since they have around 1K strength and cost as much as 3 Corvettes. Throw in a "trapping" Defense Station for some extra protection, since the AI doesn't "Skirmish" (i.e. target your Mining Stations) and plop their fleet into a trap.

It's by no means impossible to win a war early, but I'll tell you from experience, it IS a huge pain for the attacker. And that massive fleet they're fielding WILL bite them if you keep them on the ropes, since you can't really afford overcapping that early.

Always be producing new ships during a war. Your economy may have to take a back seat, especially if the war is close. Try to get a look at their ships too, if you can, so you'll know how to counter them (Missiles are hardest to counter in early game, but the trapping strat can give you the edge if you have Kinetic or Laser weapons, since they'll be forced into your range and your fire rate can out DPS them).

One thing to keep in mind as well, you DON'T need to keep your ships in 1 fleet. Some people consider Battleships worthless, but they really shine when delegated to a secondary fleet that follows the first and engages from far away, since their primary fleet can't attack them without killing off the fleet they're currently engaging.

Their FTL method (though this will be less important with the next update) can help you win too. Warp is extremely vulnerable to ambushes (I once won a war against an AI empire by just warping from 1 system to another and ambushing their construction ships that kept coming to their system to build mining stations and increased my warscore that way. Never even engaged their fleet). Hyperlanes are forced to enter from a specific direction, so you can prepare accordingly and drop Defense stations along their path to make their life hell. Wormholes are dependent on stations, so hunting these down in neighbouring systems limits their travel and can completely cut their fleets off from their planets. Use the AI's tendency to group all their ships together to your advantage and send "Maurauder" fleets of small ships to hunt their stations down.

[Belhedler]

The number does not mean much. What makes really a difference is that you have the offensive/defensive tech that the ennemy is weak to counter and that will let you destroy units fast (and a good admiral helps in the process). For example, I faced 6k with 1,8k yesterday. I recked them because I had the very technology to counter them and I had one of the best defense I could get against them. While another time I got myself killed by laser focused pirates while having armor focused fleet.

[Dialask]

Also, if you can stall them long enough while they try to build up their military, try sniping a few colonies near then with those resources that aren't immediately going into corvettes. Especially if you can try to play nice, they will awkwardly sit there while you sew them into a small spot they can't expand from. With that and using spaceports as defences (supplemented with whatever is left of your resources in corvettes/destroyers), you should be able to hold them off long enough that they slowly suffocate while you out produce them. Then, when ripe, pick and enjoy.

[LordNSR]

Originally posted by Belhedler:

The number does not mean much. What makes really a difference is that you have the offensive/defensive tech that the ennemy is weak to counter and that will let you destroy units fast (and a good admiral helps in the process). For example, I faced 6k with 1,8k yesterday. I recked them because I had the very technology to counter them and I had one of the best defense I could get against them. While another time I got myself killed by laser focused pirates while having armor focused fleet.

Yesterday i had a fight, my fleet was 29k and enemy was 45k or 40k, i lost almost my entire fleet but left them with like 3k fleet, then i outproduced them and wreck them!!!!

First war that wasn't whtie peace for us lol, third war with also, playing on hard.

[wolkenwand]

In my current game my first two war is losing war with same empires, enemy army is bigger than mine i and i just bite the bullet. After losing each war usually i get some of my territory back because they are revolting and requesting to rejoin my empire. After the winning empire became bigger their neighbour feeling threatened and i can easily ask them to join my federation. The third war with same empires my federation manage to defeat them, its a tense war because the power is balanced now, and i get my terriroty back from previous war. Fourth war agains another single powerful empire ends in a tie after i manage to upgrade my fleet in mid war and just put my fleet in borders, they dont dare to proceed.

I think its alright for losing first few war, keep research weapon technology and create strong federation can help. If you think you lose then dont sacrifice your fleet, run away and give them your teritory, you can take them back later when stronger.

[LordNSR]

well..... 700k Watchfull Regulator just jumped on my 53k fleet.....