Achievements only in Ironman mode?!?!

[BS86]

Why are the achievements only unlocked in Ironman mode where one can not save the game?!?
Are the achievements only made for jobless freaks who can play all day and night?

Usually I can't play for longer than 2 hours, then I save the game and continue the next day. This is not possible in this game.

Don't get me wrong, I also play Civ, finishing a game there usually takes me some weeks and I can still get the achievments there.
Why is this not possible here?

[Muggins]

U can use graphics and music mods everything else will block achivements, I know I hate this bullsh%t too, this is just to counter the lack of work they have done to the empires AI

[Scrapper-Lock]

Messaggio originale di onehitwonder:

The thing is you really need to know what you are doing or at least think two times about a decision in ironman mode, while in savescum mode you can test and keep to the better outcome. And oh yea it enables cheating..
As a gift for your burden you get the Achievements you can show off.

Yeah and IM also destroys your ability to reload after you get a game-breaking bug. In my last play-through with a friend of mine co-op, he got some sort of mission in his system, not sure what because we had not even 'met' yet in-game as empires, and he had to have his troops board some ship to complete it. He defeated the enemy ship in combat, but when he went to board it, the thing was bugged. It said he couldn't board it because he already had (but he hadn't). Then he got stuck. In his home system was a damn 'hostile' (but defeated) ship, the freaking game kept telling him enemy fleets were in his system, but he couldn't get rid of them because he couldn't attack, and couldn't board.

Now it's MP, so of course we weren't in IM mode, but if he had been doing this solo in IM, he'd have had to restart the entire game, because of a bug.

Call it 'save scumming' all you want, but IM mode doesn't just prevent so-called 'cheating' -- it also prevents the player from behing able to fix his own bugs by reloading to an earlier save.

And it should apply to other games too, thats why most Achievements in games are completely useless, because you get them for no effort.. In most games decisions aren't that important, so devs make it easy to get them to catch the average joe with candy.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with both points.

First, in ALL games achievements are useless, including this one. You think I care whether you've conquered 1 billion worlds across all your play-throughs or not? Achievements are something fun that adds to a game, a way you can track your own progress, of how much you have done in a game, what you have seen in it, etc. That's all they are.

Second, it's absurd to claim that in games like Skyrim or Planetbase 'most decisions aren't that important.' You can royally screw yourself in BOTH games if you make certain mistakes.

In contrast, I'd argue that a lot of my decisions in *Stellaris* aren't all that important. Decisions may be important in early game but by mid game? Almost nothing matters. Which is why you can just hand your planets off to sectors and even though the AI governors make very bad decisions, your empire will still survive. It really is hilarious that someone can claim that all decisions are important in a game that only allows you to controle like 5% of your empire and make 5% of the decisions. Ha, good one!

Don't compare absolute cookie cutter mainstream games with niche hardmode titels, it won't work well.

The whole idea of calling Stellaris hardmode is laughable. Again, if it were really a "hardmode" game, you would not be able to survive if you handed anything over to the AI. True hardmode games require you to absolutely min-max every little thing you do, just to survive. There are tons of CRPGs out there where the computer will do 'default' builds for your character, and if you play on easy or normal you can survive but if you try to play those games on hardmode or nightmare mode with default builds you get owned.

So please, let's spare ourselves the strutting about whose game is more 'hardcore' than whose.

Again, my point is that the IM = achievements model is arbitrary, and there is nothing inheremently necessary about it.

[Zsrai]

You seem to be using the fact that achievements require no mods + ironman to be arbitrary as if that matters. PDS can dictate whatever their requirements for achievements are and there isn't much we can do about it. Of course it's arbitrary. It's also not likely to change at this point in time. They don't mean much of anything, so if you want to save scum, mod heavily, edit your saves, or whatever, you just play without getting achievements.

It's not right or wrong, it just is.

[Scrapper-Lock]

The reason I'm saying it's arbitrary is that when people like the OP did, complain about achievements only being in IM mode, the pdx defenders get on their high horses with the claim that this is how it must be, as if 100% of all games everywhere only grant achievements in IM. I am pointing out that this is not true, and that tons of other games allow non-IM achievements and do nothing to prevent 'save scumming.'

And consequently, there is nothing wrong with asking for non-IM achievements, nor are the people who ask for it some kind of cheaters. They are reasonably requesting that a feature they have used with manual saves in dozens, hundreds, thousands of other games, work the same way in pdx games as in all their other games.

Now, pdx doesn't have to do it, and you don't have to agree with their request, but let's not pretend like they are some kind of fools for asking pdx to allow something that nearly every other (non-pdx) game I've ever played on steam allows.

[Richon]

Messaggio originale di steven.viscido:

The reason I'm saying it's arbitrary is that when people like the OP did, complain about achievements only being in IM mode, the pdx defenders get on their high horses with the claim that this is how it must be, as if 100% of all games everywhere only grant achievements in IM. I am pointing out that this is not true, and that tons of other games allow non-IM achievements and do nothing to prevent 'save scumming.'

And consequently, there is nothing wrong with asking for non-IM achievements, nor are the people who ask for it some kind of cheaters. They are reasonably requesting that a feature they have used with manual saves in dozens, hundreds, thousands of other games, work the same way in pdx games as in all their other games.

Now, pdx doesn't have to do it, and you don't have to agree with their request, but let's not pretend like they are some kind of fools for asking pdx to allow something that nearly every other (non-pdx) game I've ever played on steam allows.

Just also be aware that Paradox isn't alone in having restricted achievement policies.

Games like Civ V or Banished will not let you get achievments with mods enabled, even though games like Skyrim or Mount & Blade: Warband will.

It is at the discretion of each company to set the requirements for their achievements. No matter how much you may wish it, Civ V and Banished will never have mod-compatible achievements.

And in some ways, this policy is even more harsh than Paradox! At least with EU4 I can use my Illusory Flat Political Map mod, or use some extended colours in Stellaris. Even something as purely cosmetic as that would wipe out all possibility of achievements in Civ V or Banished. But we're never going to get that changed.

Paradox isn't going to change their achievement policy either. Nor is there any reason for them to do so.

EDIT: typos

[Scrapper-Lock]

Messaggio originale di Richon:

Just also be aware that Paradox isn't alone in having restricted achievement policies.

Games like Civ V or Banished will not let you get achievments with mods enabled, even though games like Skyrim or Mount & Blade: Warband will.

Yes, I am aware.

My point is, in each case it is arbitrary. A player asking for a different achievement policy, like the OP did, need not be treated like he is asking to cheat. Sure, maybe some people do, but most people just want to play the game in a slightly different way and still get achievements.

And as someone pointed out, does it really matter if you've played an easier or even modded version of the game in order to get something like the '1000 hours played' achievement? After all, you played 1000 hours either way.

Finally I would argue that playing with mods is an awful lot different from just wanting to have multiple saves in case of bugs, cashes, or other mistakes/disasters.

It seems to me there is a happy medium here. Some achievements could be flagged as ironman/no mods only... things like in CK 2, for example, taking back the holy land as a Jewish king. That achievement should not be compatible with mods because you could just put a Jewish king in Jerusalem and basically grant yourself the achievement.

But other achievements like 1,000 hours played, could easily be compatible with non-IM.

And they could designate these by doing, "Complete X in IM mode." vs. just "Complete X." This would be win/win... people would have non-IM achievements to make them happy, but the IM players would have another batch that you could only get by doing IM.

Not that I think pdx will do it, but if I were in charge, that's what I would probably try.

[Richon]

Messaggio originale di steven.viscido:

Messaggio originale di Richon:

Just also be aware that Paradox isn't alone in having restricted achievement policies.

Games like Civ V or Banished will not let you get achievments with mods enabled, even though games like Skyrim or Mount & Blade: Warband will.

Yes, I am aware.

My point is, in each case it is arbitrary. A player asking for a different achievement policy, like the OP did, need not be treated like he is asking to cheat. Sure, maybe some people do, but most people just want to play the game in a slightly different way and still get achievements.

And as someone pointed out, does it really matter if you've played an easier or even modded version of the game in order to get something like the '1000 hours played' achievement? After all, you played 1000 hours either way.

Finally I would argue that playing with mods is an awful lot different from just wanting to have multiple saves in case of bugs, cashes, or other mistakes/disasters.

It seems to me there is a happy medium here. Some achievements could be flagged as ironman/no mods only... things like in CK 2, for example, taking back the holy land as a Jewish king. That achievement should not be compatible with mods because you could just put a Jewish king in Jerusalem and basically grant yourself the achievement.

But other achievements like 1,000 hours played, could easily be compatible with non-IM.

And they could designate these by doing, "Complete X in IM mode." vs. just "Complete X." This would be win/win... people would have non-IM achievements to make them happy, but the IM players would have another batch that you could only get by doing IM.

Not that I think pdx will do it, but if I were in charge, that's what I would probably try.

Your favourite example of what needn't be ironman is the X hours played, but that achievement doesn't exist in any Paradox game I've ever played, so what exactly is your point? You literally just explained why it makes sense to have ironman achievements with your CK2 example.

Even a simple one like "have 5000 energy" is only really valid in ironman. Otherwise, what's to stop people from just booting up, using the console to add 5000 energy, and getting the achievement?

[Scrapper-Lock]

Well everything can be consoled can't it? If that's really the concern why can't they disable achievements the isntant you use a console command?

And what does whether you can use console commands or not have to do with the main issue of Ironman which is save-reload?

[Richon]

Messaggio originale di steven.viscido:

Well everything can be consoled can't it? If that's really the concern why can't they disable achievements the isntant you use a console command?

And what does whether you can use console commands or not have to do with the main issue of Ironman which is save-reload?

As mentioned before, save-scumming. Which is a very big tempation in Paradox games. And save-file editing. Ironman protects against both.

[Zsrai]

Messaggio originale di steven.viscido:

And what does whether you can use console commands or not have to do with the main issue of Ironman which is save-reload?

Ironman disables the console too, for the exact purpose of not allowing you to use it to give yourself achievements. IM is basically the "anti-cheat" mode for PDS games now a days, through disabling console commands, most mods, and save scumming & editing. That's also why it's required to get achievements.

Your argument that it's arbitrary can be agreed upon. What's after that? PDS won't change it, so it is what it is. I'm not really sure why you're still arguing about IM only achievements being arbitrary. You can disagree with the devs, but it's not going to change at this point; it hasn't changed in the last 2 years or so since they implimented it in EU4 and CK2.

You know it's arbitrary, we know it's arbitrary. I'm pretty sure PDS knows it's arbitrary. The problem is it's their game to make arbitrary decisions about (look at some of the patch/DLC mechanic changes in the post-CK2 catalogue). Unless they arbitrarily change how achievements work with IM, it's kind of just how it is. You're not going to get much of a discussion about it because it's an established policy that they implemented years ago.

[Tim_]

I'm another player that does not like this "achievements-only-in-ironman" restriction.

Why?

Because:

(1) I love playing games use load/saving regularly. It is how I enjoy them best. Messing up a game due to a bug, a misclick or a mistake and wasting 30 hours is *not* my idea of fun. Just reload the last save and carry on, avoiding said bug, misclick or mistake, and the fun keeps going.

(2) I use achievements in a game to play various paths through it. I know they mean nothing important in themselves, but striving for them often involves playing through game content I would otherwise never find or consider. I short, aiming to get them genuinally via playing (but loading and saving as much as I want) is part of MY fun. What other players do in their single-player games is up to them.

But ok, I now know that unlike most games I have played before, Paradox do not take this playstyle into account. It will affect my likelihood of buying more of their games (although I am enjoying Stellaris so far, which is to their credit).

So what have I done?

I enabled ironman. I then looked where the save files went. I then copy the save files to another folder every time I want to "save", renaming them, and copy the appropriate one back every time I want to "load".

Yes, it's a bit of a faff, but it lets me play my single player game the way I enjoy most.

It probably will mean I play Stellaris for less time than I did many other games, however.

YMMV.

[Scrapper-Lock]

And this has been precisely my point multiple times on other threads, Tim. What you have done is trivially easy for anyone who knows anything about computer file systems and thus, IM mode does not prevent 'save scumming.'

[XenoHaze]

Stupid not to able. Dont care for iron man. Also to get achievement to brag is cancer . Let players play as they want, add in iron man exclusive achievements. The argue point of people cheating in normal is void. People can just download app and unlock every achievement anyway.