Cancelling Mechanics and Combo Mechanics (DMC/Bayonetta Stuff)

[TheComboAddict]

So, some of us have been discussing how the game feels barebones in terms of its gameplay and etc but still feels juicy. I've been experimenting quite much with the mechanics, especially the combo mechanics being a veteran of crazy combos in Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, God Hand, Anarchy Reigns, Bloody Roar Primal Fury (Hidden crazy combo mechanics), and etc.

I figured, let's discuss our findings yeah?

(And I'm just gonna say right now thanks to some recent findings....this game rewards you for being stylish. Devil May Cry, God Hand, Bayonetta, and etc veterans....get over here and let's exploit the ♥♥♥♥ out of this game. I have a good feeling they want us to.)

From what I've seen so far after finishing chapter 4, there is:

- Jump Cancelling
- Dodge Cancelling
- Guard/Counter Cancelling
- Style Switch Cancelling (Similar to style switching in dmc4 and weapon cancelling in dmc3/4)
- Free-form Combo Cancelling (Basically other attacks rather than finishing the combo string, etc)
- Just Charge
- Air combos (won't go into this one, but you can launch an enemy and attackt hem in the air...but...I don't know if it's just me but if you relaunch them, they go so high that you can't see them)
- Air and Fire Dash Cancelling (there is a dodge attack for air and fire which dashes up to the enemy and hits them in the process)

And with how barebones the game is, you can literally cancel at almost any point of many attacks. Though, I notice with earth attacks, the aerial light attack can only be cancelled before the point after impact, or maybe right before it. Otherwise, you can even charge up a move and not follow through by jump cancelling and what not. With earthbending, guard cancelling works particularily well for speed in eliminating recovery frames.

Jump Cancelling: Just as it sounds, the act of cancelling active frames with an attack, or after the initial guard impact to go straight into a jump. Can let you restart combo strings in the air if you are using water and etc, or go straight into an earthbending air attack. Also good to follow up after doing a heavy earth attack on the ground since it launches

Dodge Cancelling: Ultimately useful against electricity. You could be keeping a continuous string of attacks on a mecha and the second he is about to attack you with an electrical attack, you can just dodge and keep continuing that same combo. Also, just an interesting thing you should know, especially if you have played Bayonetta 1 or 2. Dodging automatically does a "Dodge Offset," which means if you are doing a combo string and interrupt with a dodge cancel, you will continue that string where it left off. E.G.: if there is a 3 combo string, light, light, dodge, light finisher.

Guard/Counter Cancelling: Okay, this is obviously very necessary and you most likely automatically do this one without realizing it. Considering how this game wants you to "Just Guard" or "Counter" 24/7, you'll be stopping combos to guard cancel incoming attacks and projectiles. If you've used royal guard in dmc3, or dmc4, or the accessory that lets you parry guard in Bayonetta, this is just an extremely easy version of those. However, unlike Royal Guard in DMC3/4 where the guard is extremely quick and can be used to spam Spiral or Kalina Ann, the guard in here will actually stay up for awhile and keep you stationary. You can dodge, jump, or attack out of it earlier than when it recovers though. This does work great with earthbend spamming though similar to Spiral in DMC3.

Style Switch Cancelling: Surprisingly this works somewhat similar to DMC4, not entirely because I don't want to say anything is for certain...but you can really switch as fast as ou would in DMC4 if you have fast fingers (you'll look like a rainbow when you do also lol) It's possible to chain together lots of crazy combos using style switching, or should I say element switiching? You can also really help out earthbending's slow recovery after it's attacks by switching back and forth between styles.

Just Charging: Another concept I've seen from DMC4 with the Gilgamesh weapon. Just Charging is where you wait until an exact point of the charge attack to release. Sometimes there may be multiple points indicated by a flash. When you release on that flash, you get an extra whopping amount of damage and sometimes on rare occasions an frame advantage of sorts and other things. Just Charginging definitely is in the game because if you keep charging, Korra eventually drops her charge attack. I've also confirmed that Just Charge attacks give you a nice damage increase that's worth taking advantage of.
However...here's what's funny now. Unlike DMC4 where the charge would leave if you didn't follow through. In Devil May Korranetta, you can jump cancel the charge and she'll keep the charge bar at least but that's why I'm not sure if the whole just charging thing really exists since you still get benefits to have a bar or 2 full in which it changes the stlye of the attack (3 rock spires instread of 1 in earth bending light atatcks) It is also possible to guard cancel a charge, and if you dodge cancel, you will maintain that charge! (Props to Adenocel on guard and dodge.) You can at least jump and then guard right after also. The trick to jump cancel a charge attack is to release attack and quickly press jump.

Air and Fire Dash Cancelling: Here is one I saw in a video in which you can close the distance (kinda like doing Sky Star from DMC) and locks into that enemy allowing you to hit it in the process once reached. This is great after you've hit an enemy enough times on the ground that your other attacks may not reach them, or if you knocked them back out of range and water would be to slow to hit them. You can probably even use it to follow up in the air!

Free-form Combos, special move cancelling: This is a basic concept from Devil May Cry 3, kinda like doing two attacks of your basic rebellion combo, then cancelling straight into the "high time" launcher, and then doing three attacks of the sword master "aerial rave," and finishing with "Helm Breaker." This is a pretty basic free-form combo which is a combination of combining moves that otherwise naturally don't string together like the basic XXX combo in legend of Korra. You can finish the string as long as it doesn't break your combo and go into a completely different move or style and that'd be free-form comboing/cancelling.


Style Switch Combo Strings: Credit to Adenocel for confirmation and bringing it up.

Adenocel: "I also noticed that you can usually maintain a light hit combo across elements so long as you don't use a combo finisher or a heavy attack. I say usually because some specific element combos don't seem to work, such as water into air with X or XX (XXX did link). In my testing, it also seems like you can finish off the combo with a heavy attack so long as you've used two consecutive light attacks of the element you are trying to finish. For example (Earth) X, (Fire) X, (Wind) X, (Wind) X, (Wind) Y will perform the uppercut finisher, but (Earth) X, (Fire) X, (Fire) X, (Wind) X, (Wind) Y only does the default sweep finisher. "

(This one definitely needs experimenting to see why certain combos happen the way they do. Seems to follow a flow circle or perhap may just have to do with a string limit of some kind. They clearly did want us to combo with style switching, that is for sure. Thanks for bringing it up Adenocel)

Sorry for the long little guide thing. I might as well make a guide....once I have more information and confirmations. What have you guys found ^o^? Anything interesting? Cool combos? Mechanics? Awesome tips? Lay it all down!....maybe we should do a compilation combo video some time also XD!

Credits: Adenocel for guard cancelling with charge, dodge cancelling to maintain guage, and style switching combo strings

Here is a combo video from Swillo! See if you can spot the mechanics he used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0_6psBoX_0


(Honestly, I just want to help others out and just share cool things to everyone. It's like sharing a gift and being able to do so much with it. So this is my gift to you ^o^)

[Anasithera]

This is incredibly useful and true. I'm too much of a novice to understand most of this from a players perspective but after an afternoon playing through I'm starting to get the hang of combos and this game doesn't feel shallow at all.

It may be a little mundane, but they talked about juggling using earthbending and waterbending together, and while the water strong combo seems to be nice for it I don't know how you'd keep someone up. I was able to maintain a guy in the air for probably 30 hits using firebending with the backflip kick and the light combo, though. I haven't even begun to play with mixing styles together into one combo.

[Mike]

You can cancel a charge into a guard. In addition, you can maintain a charge while dodging.

I also noticed that you can usually maintain a light hit combo across elements so long as you don't use a combo finisher or a heavy attack. I say usually because some specific element combos don't seem to work, such as water into air with X or XX (XXX did link). In my testing, it also seems like you can finish off the combo with a heavy attack so long as you've used two consecutive light attacks of the element you are trying to finish. For example (Earth) X, (Fire) X, (Wind) X, (Wind) X, (Wind) Y will perform the uppercut finisher, but (Earth) X, (Fire) X, (Fire) X, (Wind) X, (Wind) Y only does the default sweep finisher.

[TheComboAddict]

Messaggio originale di Anasithera:

This is incredibly useful and true. I'm too much of a novice to understand most of this from a players perspective but after an afternoon playing through I'm starting to get the hang of combos and this game doesn't feel shallow at all.

It may be a little mundane, but they talked about juggling using earthbending and waterbending together, and while the water strong combo seems to be nice for it I don't know how you'd keep someone up. I was able to maintain a guy in the air for probably 30 hits using firebending with the backflip kick and the light combo, though. I haven't even begun to play with mixing styles together into one combo.

Oh yeah, that's all DMC4 right there XD And here I thought I made it simple for everyone to understand. Honestly, I just have to leave it up to a video. I'll try to get to work on that soon when it's not so late XD.

Otherwise hey, that's a pretty good start. When I played DMC3, I started off only sticking to Rebellion and Beowulf (sword and hand to hand) and ebony and ivory (rapid fire hand guns.) I'd use the sword master which allowed more attacks for the melee weapons and just do simple combos with hardly any switching and no enemy jump cancelling. Then once I discovered you can jump cancel off enemies while doing air combos and almost anything, my combos became crazier and crazier eventually mixing everything together...

And then there was DMC4 with it's infinitely useful style switching...but ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that meant I had to work twice as hard and develop faster hands. But easily cancelling between trickster and other styles was awesome (teleporting to my enemies and dashing around while parrying and comboing)

Now I'm working with Style Switcher mod in DMC3. Really awesome stuff since there are more weapons than DMC4 and many ways to experiment since doppleganger (double team), quicksilver (Slow down time), and all other styles can be used literally all at the same time. So two dantes, slow motion, and combos. Phew, it's alot. Harder than it seems though having to constantly switch back and forth if you play without the infinite mojo (Devil trigger guage) set on, but lotsa fun.

[TheComboAddict]

Messaggio originale di Adenocel:

You can cancel a charge into a guard. In addition, you can maintain a charge while dodging.

I also noticed that you can usually maintain a light hit combo across elements so long as you don't use a combo finisher or a heavy attack. I say usually because some specific element combos don't seem to work, such as water into air with X or XX (XXX did link). In my testing, it also seems like you can finish off the combo with a heavy attack so long as you've used two consecutive light attacks of the element you are trying to finish. For example (Earth) X, (Fire) X, (Wind) X, (Wind) X, (Wind) Y will perform the uppercut finisher, but (Earth) X, (Fire) X, (Fire) X, (Wind) X, (Wind) Y only does the default sweep finisher.

Dude, thanks for the confirmation! I'll add that in.

And I was experimenting with that myself and I found the same thing. It's pretty interesting that it does that. Hmmm, but it seems to be very specific other wise with some styles as you've explained. I guess we'd have to do a devil may cry where sometimes we have to double skip over a weapon we don't feel like using because it'd mess up a combo somehow or some way.

[Anasithera]

Messaggio originale di Captain Sheepy:

Oh yeah, that's all DMC4 right there XD And here I thought I made it simple for everyone to understand.

No no, it's perfectly understandable. It's just this is literally my first day and my first action game like this. I've never played any of the other games you talk about so I'm developing all the skills.

So while intellectually I understand what you're talking about from having seen and heard and watched these games played, I've never actually held the controller so I've only the theory, not the practice. I was proud as hell of juggling with firebending though, but I'm still on Normal difficulty.

[TheComboAddict]

Messaggio originale di Anasithera:

Messaggio originale di Captain Sheepy:

Oh yeah, that's all DMC4 right there XD And here I thought I made it simple for everyone to understand.

No no, it's perfectly understandable. It's just this is literally my first day and my first action game like this. I've never played any of the other games you talk about so I'm developing all the skills.

So while intellectually I understand what you're talking about from having seen and heard and watched these games played, I've never actually held the controller so I've only the theory, not the practice. I was proud as hell of juggling with firebending though, but I'm still on Normal difficulty.

Woah really! Well hey, honestly this is a great place to start in my opinion. While Bayonetta does have some simple controls than Devil May Cry 3 or 4 (mind you, DMC3 needs the style switcher mod and a music remover to work perfectly on steam), both games have a hard level of difficulty at some points and sometimes for newcomers require them to do the easiest mode they can and work their way up. There is also Fairy Bloom Freesia which is pretty good but it's 2.5D, controls and stages similar to smash bros but the gameplay is like DMC gone 2D.

Hmmm, and yeah honestly, I couldn't htink of anything better. This definitely seems like the best place to start ot learn about jump cancels and this cancel and that cancel for free form combos.

For normal mode, the difficulty ain't to bad. But let me tell you, once you start getting in depth with other games, your control set ups will become funky from the default. It's sad we can't change the controls here but they were perfectly fine for me. But with DMC3 and 4, I remember changing my gun fire to L1, my melee to square, my special style button to triangle, my devil trigger to circle. And if I used gunslinger just to hold down certain buttons all at once, my controls would be so weird and all over the place.

[Anasithera]

What do you think about the opinion I found in this youtube review by Rev3 Games that the combat is perhaps a little unbalanced in terms of the damage the enemies do compared to the damage the player can deal? I figure that's close to a game mechanics question. Or is it fine for enemies to be more dangerous to the player than we are to them?

http://youtu.be/zAJoO9dmpP8

I'm honestly not experienced enough to say whether he's right, though he hits the nail on the head quite well regarding the game's polish. The important things are there and work great, but there's obviously a lot of room to grow in variety of enemies and level design.

[ssd-revan]

Wow, this is great! Please keep on with the research and the posting, I'd love to know more about how in-depth the mechanics go.

[TheComboAddict]

Messaggio originale di Anasithera:

What do you think about the opinion I found in this youtube review by Rev3 Games that the combat is perhaps a little unbalanced in terms of the damage the enemies do compared to the damage the player can deal? I figure that's close to a game mechanics question. Or is it fine for enemies to be more dangerous to the player than we are to them?

http://youtu.be/zAJoO9dmpP8

I'm honestly not experienced enough to say whether he's right, though he hits the nail on the head quite well regarding the game's polish. The important things are there and work great, but there's obviously a lot of room to grow in variety of enemies and level design.

Ah...makes me wonder if that guy has ever played God Hand, or Devil May Cry and Bayonetta.

See, here's what you gotta know as to why I said this game is such a great place for you to start. This game doesn't seem to destroy your grade for using items. If you used items in Devil May Cry you're score would pretty much go down a grade and you'd miss out on a lot of points that could have went towards learning a new killer move or increasing your health. This encouraged the player towards pro play and never ever getting hit since if you did get hit, there practically goes another grade. And you know what...it worked. All the combo videos all over the internet are of people never getting hit while doing the craziest stuff you'll ever see. Pushing the limits of the game.

I did notice, wow...I die realllllly fast in this game, as fast as God Hand. But why is that? Well...I noticed, hey, where's the grade for damage or item use? There is none. Seems as long as you get in some combos and finish the battle as fast as possibl you get a good grade, and it's pretty strict about it too. If you just use earth style and murder your enemies in one hit...Nope, you get silver just like that (and platinum is the highest, two levels above silver.) So it actually retains some kind of formula in which using items will take up your time, if you have to actually heal, then you are just not doing enough to protect yourself from losing precious time for a higher grade. But if you are too quick and don't get in enough combos and just go for the kill, you are still screwing yourself over.

The game wants you to still in some way be stylish. It's like a hint of DMC is actually there. By making you take a lot of damage, you are encouraged to not take that much damage since the check points are after barrier battles (where you can't leave the room), meaning any fighting between will have to be redone if you lose.

This reviewer keeps comparing Bayonetta 2 but doesn't realize it's not just bayonetta but also devil may cry. Leveling system for instance spawns directly from Devil May Cry the fact that these elements work like the styles in DMC3 almost. Using that one levels it up. It is lacking in content thought, that's a fact. He also did bring up how they purely focused on the combat. Just like how God Hand hardly concentrated on graphics and plot, it was a major overkill in it's combat system and it's incredibly overwhelming challenge where death could be two hits away if you were playing very well. (the better you play, the easier you die, but your rewards are super maxed if you make it through)

Every devil may cry game and etc does start out really difficult in the beginning chapters because you can hardly do a thing at first. You gotta discover and work your way there. They give you the basics and build you up as if you are learning how to walk and then run, and then learning breathing techniques to run longer. I remember in God Hand how I couldn't be the first level but I kept going and looked at some videos and realized...the game was huge on "dodge cancelling" galore. Then everything became much easier

IN SHORT: Before, naturally we couldn't use items and take damage as it would destroy our grade in previous games. Treat Korra the same. I actually haven't used any healing items but rather the ones that somehow improve my combat (speed up charm and shadow fist). Try never to get hurt. Only think about being stylish (Combos and never getting hurt). The game rewards you for pushing yourself and testing your skill, especially accepting mistakes and trying to imrpove on them. If you make a mistake, oh well, keep going. You'll find a healing spirit energy by defeating enemies and breaking objects...(you really don't need healing items) If you die, start again, you'd get a terrible ranking if you revived and tried to finish. Better off getting platinum.

Make sense? ^o^

[TheComboAddict]

Messaggio originale di ssd-revan:

Wow, this is great! Please keep on with the research and the posting, I'd love to know more about how in-depth the mechanics go.

Well, through the review video that was posted here. I realized through his misunderstanding that this game actually has a hint of being stylish, similar to bayonetta or devil may cry. Never get hit, keep combos going, and you are rewarded for exploiting combat mechanics. I know now for sure those mechanics are there for those who love combos.

They want people like me to figure out how the enemy physics work. I'll make a guide out of this once it's all ready. A video guide would be easier though which i can definitely try to get to work on tomorrow I hope.

[Anasithera]

I wonder if they worked in any kind of difference in falling speed for enemies hit by certain styles after being knocked up. Say you pop someone up with the fire backflip kick and then hit them with a water light attack or the water heavy strike, do enemies fall slower like how W101's tombstone and certain unites work?

[TheComboAddict]

Messaggio originale di Anasithera:

I wonder if they worked in any kind of difference in falling speed for enemies hit by certain styles after being knocked up. Say you pop someone up with the fire backflip kick and then hit them with a water light attack or the water heavy strike, do enemies fall slower like how W101's tombstone and certain unites work?

hey hey hey, you said korra was your first action game o.o. Wonderful 101 is much harder than Korra (due to some other things like camera and etc) and that game grades you on damage and etc the same way many platinum/clover/dmc games do (okami, bayonetta, etc) That is a game you can do combos in, jump cancelling, dodge cancelling, and etc just like Korra.

But i haven't got those attacks yet but I can tell you this...yes. There is a difference in some falling speeds. One of the commenters above mentioned how light water strikes are good for air juggles after a launcer (these are the fighting game terms we use in lotsa other games. juggle means a move that keeps your opponent airborne and falling back down onto your attacks. and launcher is the pop up you mentioned) The interesting part is that in Bayonetta and DMC series, the guns are used to juggle your enemy and keep them in place where they are. The water projectiles almost do the same but much slower.

I noticed that when you launch with earth, you have some time after to switch styles and follow up, or jump up and rebound the enemy off the ground with a light earth just for another relaunch...however...I also noticed this and I need to experiment tomorrow. If you do two heavy earths, the enemy seems to get relaunched way too high to where it seems like they disappeared, and I can't tell since I lose sight of them but they seem to fall down pretty fast after. I don't know if my water attacks hit them at all but if it does, they do float for a moment regardless. However, there seems to be a limit to how long you can keep an enemy juggled with water and perhaps other abilities too unless you use certain other attacks or relaunch. That much did work for me. DMC and Bayonetta enemies also eventually start ot float down from constant attacks, but that's also your advantage to get in some ground combos and other things. (repeating a combo can make you lose style meter in the DMC series)

Anyway I need some sleep. I'll answer more questions and update finds from other commenters tomorrow.

[Anasithera]

I watch Lets Plays. The first time I played a game like this was MGR:R earlier this week to get a feel for what Korra would be like. It was actually decent preparation. I understand a little about the mechanics I've just never really played the games.

What I mentioned earlier about a fire juggling, I was able to launch with the forward-forward-heavy combo (backflip kick) and then use the light-combo into the backflip kick to keep them in the air indefinitely. It was against... A green chi-blocker? The ones that on Normal start to counter and actually chi-block you. He only fell when I had to dodge one of his friends.

[TheComboAddict]

Messaggio originale di Anasithera:

I watch Lets Plays. The first time I played a game like this was MGR:R earlier this week to get a feel for what Korra would be like. It was actually decent preparation. I understand a little about the mechanics I've just never really played the games.

What I mentioned earlier about a fire juggling, I was able to launch with the forward-forward-heavy combo (backflip kick) and then use the light-combo into the backflip kick to keep them in the air indefinitely. It was against... A green chi-blocker? The ones that on Normal start to counter and actually chi-block you. He only fell when I had to dodge one of his friends.

Yeah, a green chi-blocker would be like the simple devil or angel in dmc or bayonetta. As long as you keep attacks going, an enemy will stay juggled in the air with each sucessful attack. But they should begin to drop slowly due to balancing...if this game has balancing XD

[TheComboAddict]

And now here's an awesome video from Mike Kob explaining the mechanics I mentioned earlier on the games release. Chi blocking is one I didn't come across, so props to Mike Kob....

but now i'm totally useless TnT...I was just about to do a video just now on this with voice commentary, not sure if I should anymore since people could get all judgemental and say I'm copying him....sigh ToT. Damn you college...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIZWM5v89-U