Bug or Feature? (Beta 0.18.4.0): Mission 5 on Impossible is...er...impossible!

[Lawro]

Has anyone actually completed mission 5 on 'impossible' difficulty? I've tried it so many times, and I don't think it can be done, but I stand to be corrected.

The furthest I've gotten is the portal next to the castle, which I did once and have never been able to replicate. The biggest issue by a country mile is imp inefficiency...or rather, the imps being totally overwhelmed with the number of tasks to do.

Because imps do all jobs, by the time you get to the enemy castle (it really is a war of attrition), there are so many dropped items on the floor from friend and foe deaths alike, coupled with any kind of cooking, mining, logistics etc. that the imps almost become ineffective.

Splitting your army into various groups becomes pointless as the enemy levels and sheer numbers escalates so rapidly each wave - even if you somehow get lucky and destroy a portal each wave - that you need your whole army just to win each fight, including taking down the portals. Defending portals is an impossibility; you just have to pray the enemies don't get alerted to a portal from one of your imps running past.

Which means there's no time to get back to base, heal, sleep, and eat the non-existent food that the imps are unable to prepare on their own among their other tasks.

[Sebt]

I managed to beat this mission on Hard, but on Impossible difficulty level, the number and power of the enemies increased drastically from the beginning of the 4th wave, so I couldn't defend myself.

In waves 1-3 there were only 4 dwarves and 4 soldiers. Since the 4th wave it's now 8 dwarves, 10 soldiers and 4 archers.

[Lawro]

The way I got as far as the castle, if memory serves (I overwrote the saves as I just had way too many), was to make sure my workshop got upgraded as quickly as possible, so that my guys would have all the nice gear found in chests and from dead enemies.

But the castle is so far away, that by the time I got there and took down the portal just outside, the enemies spawned from the castle. It was either a case of dying there and then, or retreating as best possible, only to have most of my portals recaptured and nobody really left to defend my base.

[Sebt]

Ok, I managed to beat wave 3, but I think it's because of a bug that I think is partly caused by the wandering creature fix - see the save file https://drive.google.com/file/d/126cVqhIFSDqEgpAS6jLyL9F2gBMMGvD3 or this - https://drive.google.com/file/d/14QzoMCht4wuC2J2eFyzqM0N6T0H2vcEo

This time the enemies did not come as close together, or after they destroyed something of mine like a portal or a road, some of them stopped coming to me. Building a road here and there, or just having an Imp come to some of them, helps to separate the enemies. I also managed to craft some equipment, open at least one of the treasure chests, and collect some equipment from fallen enemies.

Under normal circumstances, I wouldn't have been able to reach the other parts of the maze because the 3rd wave and beyond is too strong together. The corridors in these realms are too long, so my creatures are too slow to run back and forth to defend and conquer other parts of the Netherworld's Maze before the next wave. I fully equipped my creatures with what I could make or gather from enemies (it's noted that making equippment doesn't make any sense other than to spawn more Orcs because you'll get much better equippment from fallen enemies than you'll be able to make).

Imps were very overworked, my traps were not reloading, many items were left on the floor. I destroyed all the mines but still could not get my Imps to do the work in time. Any task related to gathering enemies or items found on the ground was done very late in the game or not at all. I think some Imp creation mechanism is much needed.

[Lawro]

Agreed. Not enough imps, corridors are too long and/or monsters are too slow to move. Roads can't be built as they're immediately destroyed. There also isn't enough space along the way to build a support structure (like a guardroom coupled with bedroom and bar) to hold the line further down the dungeon. I've categorically had to give this mission up on 'impossible', and considering mission 6 was already virtually impossible on 'normal', I think I'll call it a day for the 'impossible' difficulty setting as it stands

[Lawro]

Right, so I have uploaded all of the saves for this mission (they're all called 'Fifth New [Number]', but NOT the 'Prison Doo'(r) one as that's for a bug from a different playthrough of this level) as far as I've gotten, as of today:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1i1FEp5yOIKiLNAkd_iQlmPWne9FvcUnf?usp=sharing

Good to load them one by one to see the progression. I managed to get to the second and final castle, but really I don't see a way of ever destroying the four portals near there. The sheer volume of spawned enemies is insane.

I managed to cheese the game this time...If you save just before a wave timer ends, then a random portal will spawn enemies. Reload and repeat until you get them spawning from a preferable one. And so...if you keep the two nearest portals untouched, you can venture a lot further afield, quicker, and with careful time and creature management, have enough in defense for when the nearer portals spawn. Why? They don't then go off and attack your other captured portals further along. I also lucked out for a wave where the nearest portal spawned, but for some reason the enemies didn't break down the final block of dirt so they never attacked.

[Sebt]

Good job, you really went far away from your dungeon. :)

I recently remembered something that I can use the dungeon for:
1. make enemy Cyclotaurs join my cause, and most importantly
2. feeding enemies to the Dark Mother generates mana, and since generating mana also generates Imps, you can make a lot more of them.

I'll try to beat this lvl again on Impossible difficulty.

EDIT: So far I've managed to clear all Portal up to the Castle, but I noticed that some enemies entered the portal and disappeared for some reason. O.o It's even easier to beat this lvl.

[Lawro]

Originally posted by Sebt:

Good job, you really went far away from your dungeon. :)

I recently remembered something that I can use the dungeon for:
1. make enemy Cyclotaurs join my cause, and most importantly
2. feeding enemies to the Dark Mother generates mana, and since generating mana also generates Imps, you can make a lot more of them.

I'll try to beat this lvl again on Impossible difficulty.

EDIT: So far I've managed to clear half of the realm, but I noticed that some enemies entered the portal and disappeared for some reason. O.o It's even easier to beat this lvl.

Wait...generating mana generates imps?! So that's what I've been doing wrong. I slaughtered my prisoners for the leather instead so I could level up my crafting. If I could get enough imps...there is actually a fair bit of room closer to the enemy base (some has to be dug out). If I could build a guard room and some traps, a bedroom, a bar room...maybe there's a way. I'll have to start the level over yet again though What'd you mean when you said "It's even easier to beat this lvl."?

[Sebt]

Ok, I beat the lvl 5 on Impossible difficulty, before the 11th wave, 193032 points holly Cyclocow O.o Here's the proof - https://drive.google.com/file/d/16BkAkr5PnEhbZAgG_F2du4VNEzl1bcFB/view?usp=sharing

I don't think I could have done it if some enemies didn't just enter the portal and disappear (although it didn't happen very often) and later without researching and using the Poison Cloud spell so I could damage enemies that were coming at me together. Building roads wherever I could helped stop their rush, so they had fewer portals to repair.

Originally posted by Lawro:

What did you mean when you said, "This level is even easier to beat"?

Well, after entering the portal, some of them just killed themselves with it. :v

[Lawro]

Originally posted by Sebt:

Ok, I beat the lvl 5 on Impossible difficulty, before the 11th wave, 193032 points holly Cyclocow O.o Here's the proof - https://drive.google.com/file/d/16BkAkr5PnEhbZAgG_F2du4VNEzl1bcFB/view?usp=sharing

I don't think I could have done it if some enemies didn't just enter the portal and disappear (although it didn't happen very often) and later without researching and using the Poison Cloud spell so I could damage enemies that were coming at me together. Building roads wherever I could helped stop their rush, so they had fewer portals to repair.

Originally posted by Lawro:

What did you mean when you said, "This level is even easier to beat"?

Well, after entering the portal, some of them just killed themselves with it. :v

Geez...that's insane! How on earth did you get your guys strong enough? Where are your cooking and crafting rooms?

[Sebt]

Originally posted by Lawro:

Geez...that's insane! How on earth did you get your guys strong enough?

I tried to pick up dropped equipment from enemies and treasure chests, then mine from 2 glowing mushrooms behind the nearest portal to my dungeon to unlock the lighting spell (and later the op Poison Cloud) as quickly as possible. I tried to build the Crafting Room early and make as much Steel as possible to build the Prison (so I could get Ghosts and Mana to make more Imps faster and get additional 2 Cyclotaurs on my side).

The hardest moment was when the waves got stronger and I had to deal with portals guarded by cannons, but luckily the most needed Poison Cloud was finally unlocked. I don't think my creatures would have been able to defeat them without it. Capturing all the cyclotaurs and training them as quickly as possible also helped a lot.

Originally posted by Lawro:

Where are your cooking and crafting rooms?

I've built two crafting rooms, which have helped me make Orcs and Steel for traps in the base, but any equipment dropped by enemies has always been better than what I could make. Cooking room was near the Bedroom. I've built all available rooms there.

You can change the location of the rally flag and put it to the east than press home key to quickly see my dungeon.

BTW: For some reason a Bent Sword was "discovered" when I destroyed the last two portals, I wonder where it came from, maybe from one of the Portal guards? :v

[Lawro]

Originally posted by Sebt:

Originally posted by Lawro:

Geez...that's insane! How on earth did you get your guys strong enough?

I tried to pick up dropped equipment from enemies and treasure chests, then mine from 2 glowing mushrooms behind the nearest portal to my dungeon to unlock the lighting spell (and later the op Poison Cloud) as quickly as possible. I tried to build the Crafting Room early and make as much Steel as possible to build the Prison (so I could get Ghosts and Mana to make more Imps faster and get additional 2 Cyclotaurs on my side).

The hardest moment was when the waves got stronger and I had to deal with portals guarded by cannons, but luckily the most needed Poison Cloud was finally unlocked. I don't think my creatures would have been able to defeat them without it. Capturing all the cyclotaurs and training them as quickly as possible also helped a lot.

Originally posted by Lawro:

Where are your cooking and crafting rooms?

I've built two crafting rooms, which have helped me make Orcs and Steel for traps in the base, but any equipment dropped by enemies has always been better than what I could make. Cooking room was near the Bedroom. I've built all available rooms there.

You can change the location of the rally flag and put it to the east than press home key to quickly see my dungeon.

BTW: For some reason a Bent Sword was "discovered" when I destroyed the last two portals, I wonder where it came from, maybe from one of the Portal guards? :v

I think there is an enormous amount of luck for anyone in this mission. Every seed seems different...I'm trying your tactic at the moment (perhaps a little too slow to take out portals?), and getting overwhelmed at wave 5 even though I have 16 creatures, level 2 crafting so my creatures have decent gear, levelled up Piggehs, 40+ imps...

[Sebt]

Originally posted by Lawro:

I'm trying your tactic at the moment (perhaps a little too slow to take out portals?), and getting overwhelmed at wave 5 even though I have 16 creatures, level 2 crafting so my creatures have decent gear, levelled up Piggehs, 40+ imps...

You can try these as soon as possible:
1. Build a large crafting room and set it to make lots of non-iron and non-leather items;
2. Build at least 1x3 dungeons, and later another 1x3, and feed every human prisoner you can to DM, unless they are lvl 8 and aobe - these will serve better as Ghosts;
3. After the second wave, you should have some creatures well equipped, so go and claim the first nearest portal and dig 2 Luminous Mushrooms behind it;
4. Set weapons and armour priority to maximum for orcs (because they are the fastest and can stun) and then for cyclotaurs;
5. Capture the first and later the second cyclotaur and wait for them to choose your side.
6. Grab 2 treasure chests north of the 1st cyclotaur as they contain some powerful equipment;
7. After each portal you claim, build roads wherever you can, so that the enemy will later destry one by one, giving you much more time to counterattack, try to lure enemies from dwarves to archers to soldiers (just let your Imps do that for you), but never let them all attack you at once.

[Lawro]

Originally posted by Sebt:

Originally posted by Lawro:

I'm trying your tactic at the moment (perhaps a little too slow to take out portals?), and getting overwhelmed at wave 5 even though I have 16 creatures, level 2 crafting so my creatures have decent gear, levelled up Piggehs, 40+ imps...

You can try these as soon as possible:
1. Build a large crafting room and set it to make lots of non-iron and non-leather items;
2. Build at least 1x3 dungeons, and later another 1x3, and feed every human prisoner you can to DM, unless they are lvl 8 and aobe - these will serve better as Ghosts;
3. After the second wave, you should have some creatures well equipped, so go and claim the first nearest portal and dig 2 Luminous Mushrooms behind it;
4. Set weapons and armour priority to maximum for orcs (because they are the fastest and can stun) and then for cyclotaurs;
5. Capture the first and later the second cyclotaur and wait for them to choose your side.
6. Grab 2 treasure chests north of the 1st cyclotaur as they contain some powerful equipment;
7. After each portal you claim, build roads wherever you can, so that the enemy will later destry one by one, giving you much more time to counterattack, try to lure enemies from dwarves to archers to soldiers (just let your Imps do that for you), but never let them all attack you at once.

This sounds like solid advice, I will try all of that for my next playthrough, thanks! I'm definitely slow compared to you as I hadn't even taken a portal until after wave 4, so I'm already 2 waves behind. I hadn't thought not to make iron- and leather-based items, that should help a lot making just the bone clubs.

[Sebt]

Originally posted by Lawro:

I hadn't thought not to make iron- and leather-based items, that should help a lot making just the bone clubs.

This will in other hand require to do more digging to the south so you might need to make Imps even faster, but it's worth it just to have more Orcs and it's better to have Wooden Clubs than nothing. I only later after building all Beds, traps and room structures that require leather and iron I started to make iron- and leather-based equipment. Especially having the Training Room with 4+ Punching Pigs early helps in growing stronger faster.

[Lawro]

Originally posted by Sebt:

Originally posted by Lawro:

I hadn't thought not to make iron- and leather-based items, that should help a lot making just the bone clubs.

This will in other hand require to do more digging to the south so you might need to make Imps even faster, but it's worth it just to have more Orcs and it's better to have Wooden Clubs than nothing. I only later after building all Beds, traps and room structures that require leather and iron I started to make iron- and leather-based equipment. Especially having the Training Room with 4+ Punching Pigs early helps in growing stronger faster.

You, sir, are an evil genius. The tactic worked brilliantly in the end. There is a fair amount of luck in terms of quite how enemies split up to tackle roads (as you say, there's no chance if they're all bunched together), but a few reloads can solve that. I managed to get it down to just under 8 waves in the end:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pQMPHR1ZGE4IGk1jmevmvr7Cj6Vjp-GJ/view?usp=sharing