What is "the PvP meta" in your opinion?

[Bonemiser]

Just something I've been pondering. I haven't bothered to fight anyone except a few friends, so I'm curious what the balance (or lack thereof) is like.

For anyone that PvPs often, what's popular? Classes? Weapons? Skills? Combos? What's the full setup?

I reckon Mystic is the go to since Blink, Divine and two extra damage negation sources seems like an obvious gimme, but I'm sure there's more to it than that. Help appreciated!

[Plump Femboy Axolotl]

A lot of talking ahead, I have a lot to say about PvP...

The main 'meta' is mostly stacking Vitality... because the Gear acquired from Crescent Grove is often so high-quality that it covers for any lack of Damage you might from having low Strength / Dexterity / Mind... ESPECIALLY if you get equipment with Magical/Killer/Precise/Lively/etc. Traits, since if you have a Fully Grinded Gear Set and your opponent does Not, you can often get away with much more thanks to the stat gap.

Stuns are good in PvP (Shield Bash, Fluxspear, Pay Day) and pretty much everyone wants one, alongside a Healing skill... unless you're a Super Glass Cannon Build who Doesn't Care for Healing because you Die in One Shot anyways.

But overall, while Vitality-stacking is the 'main' meta, anything can work... Glass Cannons, Unusual Stat Spreads, Classes pretending to be other Classes, Gimmick Builds... the gear and skills available helps carry a lot of a character's capabilities.

As for each class...

--- Mystic - Pretty much spot-on with your observation, though other skills worth noting are...
Nova for it's instant cast time / easy damage, with Blink -> Nova being a popular combo for easy harassment...
Fluxbolt deals great damage, has a lingering explosion so you can drop it at your own feet versus aggression, and pairs perfectly with Fluxspear's stun...
Cross is a fantastic intimidation tool once you've conditioned opponents to fear it and it's massive AoE (also soft counter to Invisibility as the debuff effect is bright, and lasts quite a while).

--- Fighter - The "standard" set-up is 3-4 Attack Skills, 1 Buff Skill (Rage, Sturdy, Inner Focus, etc.)... and then of course your Healing skill... but anything can work, it's a very versatile game.
2 Buffs or 2 Heals is also valid (though more structured PvP formats tend to limit the amount of healing spells a Player may have... just to prevent excessive stalling tactics.)

Blood Gush is a very strong skill, dealing decent impact damage and a LOT of bleed damage over time...
Stomp and Lethal Strike have some tech attached to make them more reliable... primarily that you can buffer Stomp while Dashing... and that you can 'curve' Lethal Strike mid-flight by dashing, allowing you to sometimes swerve and hit an opponent who dodged it.
Shield Bash is the longest stun, but it's hard to land due to it's limited range, and it requires you to actively have a Shield equipped... If you like Sword Fighter or even Scepter Fighter, then Shield Bash won't bother you... but if you prefer Hammers, Polearms, or other weapons, it'll feel clunky to use.

Fighter is lacking mobility compared to other classes, but Bulwark at least helps keep Fighter alive when having to pursue fleeing foes.

(Also something worth noting... Rage buffs ALL Power stats, Strength, Magic, and Dexterity... so many Fighters like to run Divine as their healing spell of choice since they have a skill that boosts it to useful healing numbers without requiring them to toy with atypical stats.)

--- Bandit - A little complex because half of their skills use Bows (specifically Bows), and the other half use Melee Weapons.
If you get good with Bandit and get used to frequent weapon swaps, it's super versatile and hard to pin down and you can somersault your way around the arena and abuse people... but otherwise just picking one weapon-type and sticking to it works very well.

Venom Shot deals some great damage (I believe it applies damage-over-time 5 times... most debuffs only tick 3) but can be a little tough to hit due to latency or poor aim.
Absurd damage on Glass Cannon / High Dexterity builds.

Bomb Trap and Pay Day are a solid combo... and you can even use Bomb Trap independent of Pay Day's stun, like leaving it in a blind spot (i.e. around the central platform in Sanctum Arena... or around the corner in one of the side alleys) so an opponent dashes into it while focusing on evading you.

I personally don't run Killer Jab on Bandit, but it's pretty good. Defense and Speed drop, and the lower a victim's Speed is, the shorter their Dash distance, making it tough for them to avoid more follow-up damage.
Volley is the worst Bandit skill for PvP since it's multi-hit function doesn't fully work in PvP... and most players don't stand still anyways. That, and it's too cumbersome to pair with Pay Day, because you have to
1. Hit Pay Day to Stun the target
2. Switch to your Bow
3. Charge Volley
4. Victim is no longer stunned
5. Hit 1-2 ticks from Volley... versus the 3-4 shots you could've gotten with a Bow using Rank 3 Mastery.
Overall, avoid Volley. Just punch the guy in the face.

As for Bandit's best abilities, that'd be Devious Signet as it's a fantastic buff which provides extra Crit and Evasion chance... both of which help you a lot more than you'd notice... the extra Stamina also helps as well if you're particularly aggressive.
Devious Signet is appreciated for Ranged Bandits, but I feel it definitely shines brightest on Melee Bandits.

Agile Technique, similar to Blink, is Bandit's signature movement skill, and it's a pretty strong one.
You can attack during Long Jumps, so crackshot Bandits running Bow tend to just run circles around their target really, really fast... and the movement skills are fuelled off of your Stamina, which recharges at a Percentage rate rather than a Flat rate.

[:3]

Originally posted by Snaxxalotl:

A lot of talking ahead, I have a lot to say about PvP...

The main 'meta' is mostly stacking Vitality... because the Gear acquired from Crescent Grove is often so high-quality that it covers for any lack of Damage you might from having low Strength / Dexterity / Mind... ESPECIALLY if you get equipment with Magical/Killer/Precise/Lively/etc. Traits, since if you have a Fully Grinded Gear Set and your opponent does Not, you can often get away with much more thanks to the stat gap.

Stuns are good in PvP (Shield Bash, Fluxspear, Pay Day) and pretty much everyone wants one, alongside a Healing skill... unless you're a Super Glass Cannon Build who Doesn't Care for Healing because you Die in One Shot anyways.

But overall, while Vitality-stacking is the 'main' meta, anything can work... Glass Cannons, Unusual Stat Spreads, Classes pretending to be other Classes, Gimmick Builds... the gear and skills available helps carry a lot of a character's capabilities.

As for each class...

--- Mystic - Pretty much spot-on with your observation, though other skills worth noting are...
Nova for it's instant cast time / easy damage, with Blink -> Nova being a popular combo for easy harassment...
Fluxbolt deals great damage, has a lingering explosion so you can drop it at your own feet versus aggression, and pairs perfectly with Fluxspear's stun...
Cross is a fantastic intimidation tool once you've conditioned opponents to fear it and it's massive AoE (also soft counter to Invisibility as the debuff effect is bright, and lasts quite a while).

--- Fighter - The "standard" set-up is 3-4 Attack Skills, 1 Buff Skill (Rage, Sturdy, Inner Focus, etc.)... and then of course your Healing skill... but anything can work, it's a very versatile game.
2 Buffs or 2 Heals is also valid (though more structured PvP formats tend to limit the amount of healing spells a Player may have... just to prevent excessive stalling tactics.)

Blood Gush is a very strong skill, dealing decent impact damage and a LOT of bleed damage over time...
Stomp and Lethal Strike have some tech attached to make them more reliable... primarily that you can buffer Stomp while Dashing... and that you can 'curve' Lethal Strike mid-flight by dashing, allowing you to sometimes swerve and hit an opponent who dodged it.
Shield Bash is the longest stun, but it's hard to land due to it's limited range, and it requires you to actively have a Shield equipped... If you like Sword Fighter or even Scepter Fighter, then Shield Bash won't bother you... but if you prefer Hammers, Polearms, or other weapons, it'll feel clunky to use.

Fighter is lacking mobility compared to other classes, but Bulwark at least helps keep Fighter alive when having to pursue fleeing foes.

(Also something worth noting... Rage buffs ALL Power stats, Strength, Magic, and Dexterity... so many Fighters like to run Divine as their healing spell of choice since they have a skill that boosts it to useful healing numbers without requiring them to toy with atypical stats.)

--- Bandit - A little complex because half of their skills use Bows (specifically Bows), and the other half use Melee Weapons.
If you get good with Bandit and get used to frequent weapon swaps, it's super versatile and hard to pin down and you can somersault your way around the arena and abuse people... but otherwise just picking one weapon-type and sticking to it works very well.

Venom Shot deals some great damage (I believe it applies damage-over-time 5 times... most debuffs only tick 3) but can be a little tough to hit due to latency or poor aim.
Absurd damage on Glass Cannon / High Dexterity builds.

Bomb Trap and Pay Day are a solid combo... and you can even use Bomb Trap independent of Pay Day's stun, like leaving it in a blind spot (i.e. around the central platform in Sanctum Arena... or around the corner in one of the side alleys) so an opponent dashes into it while focusing on evading you.

I personally don't run Killer Jab on Bandit, but it's pretty good. Defense and Speed drop, and the lower a victim's Speed is, the shorter their Dash distance, making it tough for them to avoid more follow-up damage.
Volley is the worst Bandit skill for PvP since it's multi-hit function doesn't fully work in PvP... and most players don't stand still anyways. That, and it's too cumbersome to pair with Pay Day, because you have to
1. Hit Pay Day to Stun the target
2. Switch to your Bow
3. Charge Volley
4. Victim is no longer stunned
5. Hit 1-2 ticks from Volley... versus the 3-4 shots you could've gotten with a Bow using Rank 3 Mastery.
Overall, avoid Volley. Just punch the guy in the face.

As for Bandit's best abilities, that'd be Devious Signet as it's a fantastic buff which provides extra Crit and Evasion chance... both of which help you a lot more than you'd notice... the extra Stamina also helps as well if you're particularly aggressive.
Devious Signet is appreciated for Ranged Bandits, but I feel it definitely shines brightest on Melee Bandits.

Agile Technique, similar to Blink, is Bandit's signature movement skill, and it's a pretty strong one.
You can attack during Long Jumps, so crackshot Bandits running Bow tend to just run circles around their target really, really fast... and the movement skills are fuelled off of your Stamina, which recharges at a Percentage rate rather than a Flat rate.

disagree that fighter lacks mobility. lethal strike is hilarious & polearms (yes, weapons are mostly classless but the tomes come from the fighter trainer, so it's pretty clear they were mostly intended for fighter) have a really silly charge move with distance that scales w speed, making leg up very viable, and also has several points at which it can either be turned into a non-damaging double dash or a hit and dash away attack. also consider that both of these are extremely fast long dashes with a massive damage hitbox at the end. i've consistently been able to bully bandits and mages using my fighter build regardless of their mobility (not even climbing up onto the sanctum arena decor really helps 'em)

also please, PLEASE do not tell anyone to run bomb trap in a pvp meta discussion. please. new reflect makes it a suicide button as a fighter can just proc sturdy and walk into it to give you a taste of your medicine with a comfy 120% dmg

[Intra]

Originally posted by :3:

also please, PLEASE do not tell anyone to run bomb trap in a pvp meta discussion. please. new reflect makes it a suicide button as a fighter can just proc sturdy and walk into it to give you a taste of your medicine with a comfy 120% dmg

The largest Discord PVP group currently bans:

Having more than one heal (Mist Veil doesn't count)
Using potions that aren't buff potions
Reflect
Siphon Leech

So Reflect currently isn't a problem for that group

[Bonemiser]

Thank you, this does answer quite a few of my questions already. Banning Reflect is interesting, but makes sense. Sounds like there's a scene developing despite PvP being kind of an afterthought, lol. Very cool.

[Plump Femboy Axolotl]

Originally posted by :3:

disagree that fighter lacks mobility. lethal strike is hilarious & polearms (yes, weapons are mostly classless but the tomes come from the fighter trainer, so it's pretty clear they were mostly intended for fighter) have a really silly charge move with distance that scales w speed, making leg up very viable, and also has several points at which it can either be turned into a non-damaging double dash or a hit and dash away attack. also consider that both of these are extremely fast long dashes with a massive damage hitbox at the end. i've consistently been able to bully bandits and mages using my fighter build regardless of their mobility (not even climbing up onto the sanctum arena decor really helps 'em)

also please, PLEASE do not tell anyone to run bomb trap in a pvp meta discussion. please. new reflect makes it a suicide button as a fighter can just proc sturdy and walk into it to give you a taste of your medicine with a comfy 120% dmg

Lethal Strike is a telegraphed skill (weapon changes position, sound effects, red flashes...) on a several second cooldown versus other class' mobility skills that are on a 0-second cooldown, and not telegraphed by anything other than the 0.2 seconds spent dashing before zipping off-screen.
Polearm's Charge Attack is fine, but it's also telegraphed... these abilities work best with ping differences where an opponent won't react to the fact you're using it, otherwise in situations with more aware players/good ping, they'll simply Parry and counter-attack unless you're playing mind-games.

They're both great tools, Lethal Strike is fantastic even, with it's .8 second Evasion letting it bypass dangerous incoming attacks, but they're band-aid solutions to the mobility issue, and a Fighter will still be outpaced by Mystics and Bandits playing to their class' strengths.

Besides, Fighter is the only class that has Psionic Powers Reflect, Bandits and Mystics can't punish a player who uses Bomb Trap recklessly, so it's still a solid pick 66% of the time if you're specifically playing to maximize it's potential.

[:3]

Originally posted by Snaxxalotl:

Originally posted by :3:

disagree that fighter lacks mobility. lethal strike is hilarious & polearms (yes, weapons are mostly classless but the tomes come from the fighter trainer, so it's pretty clear they were mostly intended for fighter) have a really silly charge move with distance that scales w speed, making leg up very viable, and also has several points at which it can either be turned into a non-damaging double dash or a hit and dash away attack. also consider that both of these are extremely fast long dashes with a massive damage hitbox at the end. i've consistently been able to bully bandits and mages using my fighter build regardless of their mobility (not even climbing up onto the sanctum arena decor really helps 'em)

also please, PLEASE do not tell anyone to run bomb trap in a pvp meta discussion. please. new reflect makes it a suicide button as a fighter can just proc sturdy and walk into it to give you a taste of your medicine with a comfy 120% dmg

Lethal Strike is a telegraphed skill (weapon changes position, sound effects, red flashes...) on a several second cooldown versus other class' mobility skills that are on a 0-second cooldown, and not telegraphed by anything other than the 0.2 seconds spent dashing before zipping off-screen.
Polearm's Charge Attack is fine, but it's also telegraphed... these abilities work best with ping differences where an opponent won't react to the fact you're using it, otherwise in situations with more aware players/good ping, they'll simply Parry and counter-attack unless you're playing mind-games.

They're both great tools, Lethal Strike is fantastic even, with it's .8 second Evasion letting it bypass dangerous incoming attacks, but they're band-aid solutions to the mobility issue, and a Fighter will still be outpaced by Mystics and Bandits playing to their class' strengths.

Besides, Fighter is the only class that has Psionic Powers Reflect, Bandits and Mystics can't punish a player who uses Bomb Trap recklessly, so it's still a solid pick 66% of the time if you're specifically playing to maximize it's potential.

thing is, lethal strike and polearm's telegraphs aren't exactly universal as you can interrupt them via dashing, and telegraphs don't apply much to mobility. i don't wish to get into the logistics of pvp mind games but you can very easily trick unsuspecting opponents into subconsciously dropping their guard or switching to a very reaction based playstyle which isn't fantastic either, esp against fighter & the immense pressure they can place on you

bomb trap is okay in a non fighter matchup but it loses a fair bit of viability against even bandit & mystic as they can just ....... not walk into it, as they have great ranged options.

[laslax]

Strongest stuff are DoTs and stuns. Maybe something to ignore Fighters Reflect too.

[Smug Kot]

Stun and DoTs, since you can parry everything and be inmortal.

[MortemFoE]

Stuns are must-have, healing in any form (unless potions are banned which would be good to not making the eternal battle) is must-have, 1-2 attacking skills besides stun is must-have. I tried to do stuff on my Bandit main and can say that i have more problems just hitting opponents than actually doing damage (although damage on bandit sucks) and if people have 300 or more hp they will simply survive Pay Day+Killer Jab (even if i get 2 crits because defense matters too) and heal right after with divine or other stuff. The bow is unusable thx to ping and lag lowering the shot speed and glitching the weapon switch. Mist Veil on bandit is very nice if low on hp or want to try a surprise attack. Bomb Trap is A tier (good utility tool) unless you are against a fighter with reflect which makes Bomb Trap F tier. Bandit has very good movement and it hard to hit him with the Syphon Leech (which is a skill and aim issue), Leg Up would make it more chaotic. Overall bandit is actually the worst class in PvP from my experience, i won against some opponents only because of our skill issue and learning how to counter stuff and fighters are the toughest to fight...