Divine might be too strong?

[Myagic]

Look, I love having an all class aoe+heal. I'm just saying that it's so good on every class that people can time the effect to basically always have it active. I'd even say it's ridiculous when multiple are placed at the same time. It can become a circle of undying. It's been popping up a lot that parties can just huddle up and laugh off even the hardest fights without even needing to attack themselves.

I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to increase the cooldown so it's a bit more committal. I don't think we need to kill the damage/heal? I like that it's usable even without mind investment, but there could be a world which it's restricted to being only good with people invested into mind.

I mention this because with the increased skill slots coming out it means that it's a skill that EVERYONE will have regardless of build. With extra skill slots available the opportunity cost couldn't be lower.

These are just my thoughts though and I'd love to hear how other people feel.

[KingCharlesCavalierSpaniel]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Lesserred:

After a bit of thought I have two suggestions to nerf divine in a way that just changes it's functionality but keeping it's overall power, and these can be tossed out entirely by Kiseff so I'm just throwing it out there for the sake of argument: Make it a channeled ability, OR Halve the damage and healing but double the duration.

Reasoning for the first option: Still retains its AoE healing and damage potential, but requires you to commit to being a healing beacon for a maximum of 5 seconds, making it a risk vs. reward scenario.

Reasoning for the second option: Makes it so it's still a powerful healing tool, but not a 5 second invincibility window, and makes it so to get the most out of it you still have to engage with combat, since it no longer heals you to full after every tick but you still have to keep enemies in the circle.

Edit:Thinking about it a little more, option 2 would also require a slight extension on the cooldown to avoid a party of 4 just constantly having the floor be healing lava.

I was typing before your reply showed up but these changes wouldn't be bad either, but I still think a lvl cap would be better instead of changing the ability.

[Victory_Abyss]

Diposting pertama kali oleh KingCharlesCavalierSpaniel:

I think nerfing an ability (that isn't even that broken) in a PVE game is pointless. This game isn't competitive unless you're a speedrunner, so using Divine is completely optional. All the moves in this game feel very simplistic and Divine is one of the only moves that doesn't make you feel like you're one-inch punching enemies.

I would hate if it got nerfed, but I wouldn't mind if Kiseff made Divine an endgame spell that you could only learn at lvl 25 or once you became an advanced class.

I completely agree with all of this. Nobody is forced to use divine. If people play PVP and don't want to use divine for that PVP specifically they can both agree to not use it. Or developer could ban divine for PVP but that seems too harsh. I don't know. All I know is "Divine go BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR" and I'm happy. It's just good. Isn't Angela (ANGEL-A) divine? So if divine were weak, it would imply Angela is weak.... which is not true, because she is very powerful and managed to save a small portion of the world that got destroyed and resurrected the players soul and gave them super powers to fight evil and save the world sooooooo very divine, very powerful. Every weapon ever created was also "not fair/over powered" because that's the entire point. Angela gave us "divine" BECAUSE it's OP. That's on purpose. We're on a mission to save the world from the corruption/monsters. Super hero's need SUPER powers.

[Victory_Abyss]

Diposting pertama kali oleh KingCharlesCavalierSpaniel:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Lesserred:

After a bit of thought I have two suggestions to nerf divine in a way that just changes it's functionality but keeping it's overall power, and these can be tossed out entirely by Kiseff so I'm just throwing it out there for the sake of argument: Make it a channeled ability, OR Halve the damage and healing but double the duration.

Reasoning for the first option: Still retains its AoE healing and damage potential, but requires you to commit to being a healing beacon for a maximum of 5 seconds, making it a risk vs. reward scenario.

Reasoning for the second option: Makes it so it's still a powerful healing tool, but not a 5 second invincibility window, and makes it so to get the most out of it you still have to engage with combat, since it no longer heals you to full after every tick but you still have to keep enemies in the circle.

Edit:Thinking about it a little more, option 2 would also require a slight extension on the cooldown to avoid a party of 4 just constantly having the floor be healing lava.

I was typing before your reply showed up but these changes wouldn't be bad either, but I still think a lvl cap would be better instead of changing the ability.

I wouldn't mind it being a secret level 25 ability. Makes it feel more special to unlock divine at 25 because the character has achieved a level so high that they are now divine, so they unlock the divine power. But on an unrelated note I hope the developer increases the level cap and introduces new game + so that we can eventually max out all skills and stats.

[Oni]

Don't get why the uproar for divine? it doesn't even do that much damage if you aren't mystic, the heals and damage is only good on mystic, trying it on fighter it does bare minimum healing.

Did you guys actually try a grove run after the changes? Enemies no longer melt in under 1 sec, there's less monsters spammed but they take longer to kill. (not solo)
Going all mind with zero vit and all magical enchants isn't broken anymore (unless you're solo) you'll be one/two shot and the damage outside of solo play isn't gonna be OP since more players around enemies will increase their toughness.

It's actually fun to play in groups now, instead of watching a boss die in 1 sec, it now survives a bit longer and if you have horrible stat distribution you end up dying :D

[Searanox]

Its the only heal others spell in the game, it needs to be good.

[Myagic]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Searanox:

Its the only heal others spell in the game, it needs to be good.

That's just not true. restora exists.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Oni:

Don't get why the uproar for divine? it doesn't even do that much damage if you aren't mystic, the heals and damage is only good on mystic, trying it on fighter it does bare minimum healing.

Did you guys actually try a grove run after the changes? Enemies no longer melt in under 1 sec, there's less monsters spammed but they take longer to kill. (not solo)
Going all mind with zero vit and all magical enchants isn't broken anymore (unless you're solo) you'll be one/two shot and the damage outside of solo play isn't gonna be OP since more players around enemies will increase their toughness.

It's actually fun to play in groups now, instead of watching a boss die in 1 sec, it now survives a bit longer and if you have horrible stat distribution you end up dying :D

It's not an uproar to question if something may be too good lol.

[Oni]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Myagic:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Searanox:

Its the only heal others spell in the game, it needs to be good.

That's just not true. restora exists.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Oni:

Don't get why the uproar for divine? it doesn't even do that much damage if you aren't mystic, the heals and damage is only good on mystic, trying it on fighter it does bare minimum healing.

Did you guys actually try a grove run after the changes? Enemies no longer melt in under 1 sec, there's less monsters spammed but they take longer to kill. (not solo)
Going all mind with zero vit and all magical enchants isn't broken anymore (unless you're solo) you'll be one/two shot and the damage outside of solo play isn't gonna be OP since more players around enemies will increase their toughness.

It's actually fun to play in groups now, instead of watching a boss die in 1 sec, it now survives a bit longer and if you have horrible stat distribution you end up dying :D

It's not an uproar to question if something may be too good lol.

Maybe if you checked the replies asking for a needless nerf and fighting over it you'd understand lol.

The skill is fine, the changes to enemy numbers & their toughness in relation to player numbers nearby made things much better, instead of just watching everything melt in group play, it's now more balanced.

[KingCharlesCavalierSpaniel]

I hope Kiseff focuses on finishing the pig dungeon, and gives players new equipment, weapons, character creator options, and maybe even new chat commands while we wait. I think balance changes should be at the bottom of his list. lmao

[Oni]

Diposting pertama kali oleh KingCharlesCavalierSpaniel:

I hope Kiseff is focused on adding new equipment, weapons, character creator options, and maybe even new chat commands while he works on finishing the pig dungeon. I think balance changes should be at the bottom of his list. lmao

That doesn't make any sense, the update that happened changed dungeon monster numbers and their toughness in relation to players nearby. That's balance changes.
Class skill changes also count towards that, just trying the grove after the changes was more fun than it was before.

And again, people need to understand that their mostly optimized builds on the current dungeons aren't the same as a fresh player. It's gonna be another complaint when new content releases and min/maxed players blitz through it then complain it's too easy.

I do agree with you though, game really needs more content right now, hopefully it's not too much of a load on a one person dev.

[Faust]

I struggle to see how changes to group clears in grove are an argument in favor of not balancing Divine. My fighter with 260 HP and 1 Mind heals to full with it most of the time I pop it, all the while I stay in the thick of the fight. No need for a 50s cooldown, no need to withdraw because getting hit removes my Recovery, just pop and go ham. If this is bare minimum, I wonder what you would think of something like Mist Veil.

[Victory_Abyss]

Step one: I'm bored
Step two: Video games are fun so go play video games
Step three: Remember that I don't enjoy enjoyment
Step four: How could this happen? Now I'm upset.
Step five: Complain that everything fun should be removed or made less fun until video game is not fun anymore
Step six: I'm bored again
Step seven: Repeat until all games are ruined

No fun allowed. Nerf everything good. Is it enjoyable? is it fun? does it feel awesome to use? Then it's bad!

/very frustrated sarcasm

Why. Does. This. Keep. Happening. To. Every. Game. In. The. World?

WHY? I just want to have fun! "THE GLOWING LASER THING AND THE HEALING THING MADE ME HAVE TOO MUCH FUN, PLS NERF!"

Just don't use it! Please just put a sticky note that says "don't use thing that is too much fun"

IF people have the determination and the willpower to say "I choose to have less fun" then they must also have the determination and the willpower to refuse to press the specific button that makes fun things happen in the video game.

But don't take away the fun from everyone else! Please don't do this! again x9999999999 times it has already happened to so many games I love loved.

"but I need it to be realistic and limited and it has to be a certain way or it doesn't make sense!" It's a game about magic squirrels fighting with swords.

Why why why why why *cries*

*sigh*

I really wish everyone the best, and respect all of your opinions. I just can't handle the things I enjoy going the same way over and over again. You think I'm being dramatic, but this is a story older than time itself.

/rant

[Lesserred]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Victory_Abyss:

/rant

Not to derail this thread even further, but the fact I've seen you make so many suggestion threads today made me curious. Based on your post history you were looking for a new RPG to play like a week ago, found this one, and immediately started throwing ideas for changes in the discussion forums.

You do realize this game is in beta and the primary purpose of a beta is balance and bug testing, right? QoL and system adjustments too, but balance and bugs are mostly what we're supposed to be looking out for. Nerfs AND buffs are gonna happen while things are figured out. Not only that, we're only in the starting section of the game still so getting stuff that seems at worst mid-game in strength this early IS a balance issue. Like the average health of a player is ~240-160 right now(excluding those all vit builds) so I think a heal that can do over 600 is a bit excessive especially with how safe the move is to use. People saying the move is too strong aren't trying to make it useless or delete it, it just seems too good for what it is and how early we get it.

[Myagic]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Lesserred:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Victory_Abyss:

/rant

Not to derail this thread even further, but the fact I've seen you make so many suggestion threads today made me curious. Based on your post history you were looking for a new RPG to play like a week ago, found this one, and immediately started throwing ideas for changes in the discussion forums.

You do realize this game is in beta and the primary purpose of a beta is balance and bug testing, right? QoL and system adjustments too, but balance and bugs are mostly what we're supposed to be looking out for. Nerfs AND buffs are gonna happen while things are figured out. Not only that, we're only in the starting section of the game still so getting stuff that seems at worst mid-game in strength this early IS a balance issue. Like the average health of a player is ~240-160 right now(excluding those all vit builds) so I think a heal that can do over 600 is a bit excessive especially with how safe the move is to use. People saying the move is too strong aren't trying to make it useless or delete it, it just seems too good for what it is and how early we get it.

Thank you. I feel like it got lost in translation at the mere mention of "nerf." I feel like asking for a cooldown increase is extremely tame of an ask and it's like I'm being roasted at the stake for *checking notes*
Noting a potential imbalance. That's what we're here for with an early release game after all. Hopefully we can keep discussion tame at this point. Discussion is good and healthy peeps. it's fine to disagree, but there's no need for dramatics.

That being said, the reason I highlighted the cooldown in particular is because how it affects party play. If multiple have it and time it well, you'll live through anything passed a one shot. It can monotonize gameplay even for people not running it. We're just here to try to improve the experience for peeps. Not take away fun.

[Victory_Abyss]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Lesserred:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Victory_Abyss:

/rant

Not to derail this thread even further, but the fact I've seen you make so many suggestion threads today made me curious. Based on your post history you were looking for a new RPG to play like a week ago, found this one, and immediately started throwing ideas for changes in the discussion forums.

Nope, I wasn't looking for a game like this. Nothing could have ever prepared me for such an excellent game that combines the features and style that this game does. I couldn't have been looking for perfection, because I didn't even know perfection existed. I just found this game by sheer chance, and I bought the game only because I wanted to try the character creator and support the developer for making a game that gave me such a powerful sense of nostalgia. It was difficult to really gauge the feel of the game just from game play footage, but past the character creator I found the game play to be surprisingly wonderful, and what was originally just "this character creator looks awesome, graphics and music are awesome etc." became "Whoa this game is AWESOME! I need keep playing this". Honestly I had given up on role play games years ago because I felt like they weren't really being done right. This game is just right. it's just, it just is.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Lesserred:

You do realize this game is in beta and the primary purpose of a beta is balance and bug testing, right? QoL and system adjustments too, but balance and bugs are mostly what we're supposed to be looking out for. Nerfs AND buffs are gonna happen while things are figured out.

Of course, but I feel like everyone is ignoring the pattern of how so many games become ruined by taking it so early and recklessly steering it in the direction that games often go with balancing.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Lesserred:

Not only that, we're only in the starting section of the game still so getting stuff that seems at worst mid-game in strength this early IS a balance issue.

So many people are desperate to nerf so many things so early on, despite not knowing where the developer truly intends to take the game in the future.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Lesserred:

Like the average health of a player is ~240-160 right now(excluding those all vit builds) so I think a heal that can do over 600 is a bit excessive especially with how safe the move is to use. People saying the move is too strong aren't trying to make it useless or delete it, it just seems too good for what it is and how early we get it.

Honest question- how can anyone possibly know that the developer isn't going to add more difficult enemies in the future, or increase the level cap?

What if the items and abilities that people consider "overpowered" or "unbalanced" today, seem weak in comparison to more difficult enemies in the game in the future?

We're metaphorically putting on sunblock and filling up the gas tank for a very long road trip with no planning to go to a beach we don't have directions to, a beach that we don't even know exists, and to top it all off, we don't even know what the weather will be like when we get there. But that sunblock is too effective right here right now, so lets nerf the sunblock?

[Faust]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Victory_Abyss:

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

This is exactly why I cut our 'conversation' short. The forum is here to benefit the game and its playerbase in matters pertaining to the game, and I don't think Kiseff is gonna benefit from me fueling an extended tantrum about semantics of game design. If this is how you respect others' opinions, I wonder what your disrespect looks like.

On the topic, on the off chance Kiseff happens to be unfortunate enough to read this: Whatever your power level is meant to be, Divine is currently unbalanced by virtue of being far ahead of the rest of the healing skills. Do with this information as you please.