Open Review/Balance Discussion

[ZackFox]

Hope I'm not retreading too much ground here, but I wanted to get some opinions from other people about this game, and give out some of my own.

Just as a foreword though, I'm absolutely LOVING this game. Movement-based things like platformers have always been my favorite, then there's combat styled around it to boot. It's definitely caught my attention, even without the uh...As I've seen before, "assthetic".

Now, onto ♥♥♥♥ you actually care about.

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Weaponry

The weapons all swing and feel really nice, the animations are all generally pretty good, even if it isn't breaking any boundaries. As for actual use, from most powerful to least in my experience:

• Scepter. Straightforward basic ranged attack, more than a handful can hit multiple targets by default, charge attacks are usually a nice buffer while waiting for skills to come off cooldown. It's a bit dull to use since it's usually just kite and smite, but it's easily my go-to on Mystic.
  
• Heavy Weapons. Big, slow, tricky to use, but when spec'd right--either with a good Fighter or with a Bandit using Inner Focus--it's a burst damage god. Probably not the best weapon overall, but watching health bars melt will always be fun.
  
• Katars. The tiny range does detract from this thing a bit since I'm a total spaz and my first instinct is to dodge, not parry. But for its DPS, it's among the best. Especially if you wedge yourself between a group of enemies and watch the damage numbers fly.
  
• Bow. The only reason it isn't higher is because it's a bit of a drag to use. Bow mastery letting you fire faster is good, but the charge attack feels underwhelming. It fires a nice volley, which is good, but each shot in the volley does less damage per than just firing normally. With max mastery, by the time you're done with the volley, you'd have done about the same DPS just shooting blindly. It's really only good at when waiting on enemies to spawn so you get some extra burst.
  
• Bell. I've found some use in the early game where damage scaling was much more squished, but I've never used this damn thing past level 12. I tried using it once at about level 15 and it felt really underpowered, despite being an on level item. Which sucks, because I really like it.
  
• Sword. Completely ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ useless. I can't be any nicer than that, unfortunately. My guess is that it was meant to be the default pairing for non-Mystics to use with a shield? Which I mean, a shield has its merits, but when it's paired with a slightly sharp stick, it doesn't mean all that much. Coming out of your guard to get chip damage in is a task, to say the least.

Note that I didn't include the spear. That's because I've never gotten around to using it. I've heard it's one of if not the best in the game, and I can believe it, but I don't have any experience on it despite multiple Lv20s, so I'm leaving it out.

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Skills & Stats

For skills and stats, I'm gonna kinda lump them in together; the skills will be judged by class as a whole.
Stats are kinda one-note. Depending on how risky you wanna play it, an even split between main stat and Vitality, or a 2:1 ratio, is about the only thing you should do. I tend to evenly split because sometimes it feels like you need as much health as you can get playing solo.
Now, a single stat being the only useful stat for a class is not an unknown in most MMOs, or really most RPGs. But honestly, that's kinda boring. Especially in a game like this where you can freeform build yourself how you want to an extent. I think there should be at least a secondary stat that each class can benefit from for extra diversity.
For example, Fighters mainly use Strength, but could side with Dexterity as their crit chances scale faster with less points (idea taken directly from another post). Bandits usually use Dex, but could have some Mind on the side--Mind scaling MP like normal, but instead of magic power, it further boosts Dex power at reduced effectiveness. Mystics use Mind as a main stat, but can secondary Strength to become a bit more of a spellblade. First thing that comes to mind is maybe increasing the Bell's attack speed and damage radius, scaling with Strength. Y'know, "swinging it harder makes the noise louder." Get creative.

Onto skills...

• Fighter. You're a zweihander barbarian or you're not playing it right. Rage, Lethal Strike, and Cyclone are absolutely stupid in all the best ways, with Blood Gush kinda tagging along as a DPS aid with its bleed. Though I do believe every class should have some form of self-heal. Not just Recovery, the class skills themselves.
  Oh, and Shield Bash and Reflect are useless. See Weapons > Sword. Stomp is neat as well, but with the later game enemies, playing Fighter is a task because they just absolutely murder you up close like that.
  
• Bandit. By far the slowest damaging class when playing solo. Slowest, not least. Mist Veil shouldn't have an increasing duration and instead just increase the healing per tick, as well as some other benefit (like maybe critting if you attack while invisible?). The bow skills feel underwhelming, the melee skills are where it's at. Seriously, who decided that Payday should have hitstun?
  Combined with a learned Inner Focus, a burst heavy Bandit is extremely dangerous, but kinda prone to dragging their feet if it doesn't kill outright.
  
• Mystic. Y'know, I actually kinda hated this class at first. Then I discovered how absolutely insane Fluxbolt was, and the value of Fluxspear's stun. That as main damage/utility, a learned Divine and Siphon Leech, then Prism for insurance, and it's really hard to kill while also putting out some really good damage.
  Just be prepared to munch a lot of Magicloves.

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Progression

Keeping this one a bit brief. The progression is good as a whole, but MAN there are some stupid difficulty spikes with every new tier. Going from Catacombs 6-12 to 12-18 is a beast until you level up enough to actually do significant damage. I like the challenge since it forced me to learn the value of parrying and keeps me from falling asleep when grinding, but it can make dungeons a real slog.

One thing I will say is wholeheartly kinda bad about the progression is the consistent use of "variants." Ironically, it reduces enemy variety since other than stats and the different effect on hit, what's really so different between Lesser/Greater Wisps, Toxins, and Phantasms? Or the three flavors of Geist and Slime?
I understand this is probably much more due to time or effort constraints for purposes of the beta, but I'd still like to see this diminished going forward. Enemy variants that are 'basically the same enemy but tougher to match you' make a lot of people feel like they aren't progressing all that much in power, and I'm one of them.

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Okay. That was...a lot. Hopefully not too long that this belong in Guides or something. But it should go to show you how passionate I am about this game, and I'm sure many others can say the same.
I just wanted to put my voice out there since this isn't a game I share with many friends, or at least friends that can have this kind of discussion.
JUST TO CLARIFY, my notes are all in my opinion. If you know something I don't, I'd much appreciate saying as such respectfully (which I hope is a given).

[fwops]

Agree about mystic it's GREAT, ig I don't have mana issues because I rarely need to use bolt since spamming with the Firestaff is good enough with the burn rot

Anytime I felt like I hit a wall, restatting into a bit more vit fixed the issue. Currently at 100 health and hardly feel i need more for current content

Idk about the other two classes yet will try them when my mystics capped

[Chaud314231]

Personally I think the Katar's air attack needs to angle downwards more, like a Dive Kick.

You will very often miss your target and be unable to capitalise on the multiple slashes upon landing.

[SilverLight]

Sword's main benefit is having the second highest attack speed, only beaten by Katars, but also allowing you to benefit from a shield (the only other weapon that allows this currently is the Scepter). Personally, I prefer Sword & Shield as an option, especially when enemies start doing enough damage to hurt you through your blocks/parries, but I can understand finding the damage lackluster.

Fundamentally disagree on Mist Veil, the stealth effect lasting much longer is better and more fitting for the whole class design. The bow skills do feel pretty lackluster though, the best bow skill is the one you can learn from a skill scroll for AoE burst.

[ZackFox]

Messaggio originale di SilverLight:

Sword's main benefit is having the second highest attack speed, only beaten by Katars, but also allowing you to benefit from a shield (the only other weapon that allows this currently is the Scepter). Personally, I prefer Sword & Shield as an option, especially when enemies start doing enough damage to hurt you through your blocks/parries, but I can understand finding the damage lackluster.

Fundamentally disagree on Mist Veil, the stealth effect lasting much longer is better and more fitting for the whole class design. The bow skills do feel pretty lackluster though, the best bow skill is the one you can learn from a skill scroll for AoE burst.

Actually, I think shorter and more effective stealth instead of a flat duration increase would help Bandit's personality a lot more. Bandits, being Dex based, are fast and cunning, agile, and depending on how you build them, don't hit as much but hit HARD as a tradeoff.
You also kinda have to think about it from an MMO standpoint, since this is what this game will be. The longer you spend doing nothing, the less impactful you ultimately are as a team player. Stealth will always be useful as a de-aggroing tool, but its healing aspect is neutered if a Mystic brings along Divine or Restora, meaning you'll constantly be cutting your stealth short.
If you were instead rewarded for cutting it short so it never feels as if it's a waste, it'll fit in much better. Duration could be a bonus from elsewhere, but not from simple rank increases. It's currently the only Bandit skill I use that feels underwhelming, so much so that most of the time when I use it for healing, I tab out and check Discord or something while watching the enemies meander around. That sort of sitting around should never be a norm if you ask me.

[Catcocomics]

Mist Veil having longer durations is very useful for taking the heat off while you're waiting on your other cooldowns and in need of stamina/mana regeneration, plus you can end the effect early by attacking or casting any skill.

Sword & Board I've yet to really do much with in current release; in the itch.io demo though, it worked very well for me going 1:1 STR/DEX split since its high attack speed pairs very nicely with high critical rate.

if anything though, I've mostly been struggling with the Rageboars and simply entering and attuning with the Crescent Keep in general, both with 2:1 STR/VIT heavy Fighter and on 1:1 bell Mystic, the main issue being that for *being the same level or lower compared to me, they sure do a lot of damage and have next to no stun time on parry, even with max Bulwark*

I guess I should invest more in moves that stun enemies without needing to parry since mass hordes of ridiculously dangerous enemies refusing to synchronize their attacks for me that crit for more than 60% of my HP *through nearly 50 defense, through 150+ HP* can't be dealt with by anything other than spamming crowd control and running away until the cows come home.

This probably wouldn't be anywhere near as much of an issue if core stats could still contribute to DEF and Magic DEF, but they got rid of that (without giving any of the lost DEF back as far as I can tell) and still let the higher-level enemies have a ~30% crit chance with no competing stats to tone it down.

[SilverLight]

While I understand your perspective, being able to stay invisible for a long time is helpful in a few different ways. Repositioning, activating buffs, letting your stamina recharge, or even just freezing the boss fight if the rest of your squad died and has to walk back to the boss room. It's a very specific bit of tech, on top of being a replacement for the Recovery skill.
I frequently use it not for healing, but to let the warrior aggro everything into a nice convenient line for a Payday chain stun.

I feel like the only benefit you could give Mist Veil without making it objectively way too powerful would be to refund cooldown based on the remaining seconds of duration if you break stealth with an attack.

[ZackFox]

Messaggio originale di Catcocomics:

Mist Veil having longer durations is very useful for taking the heat off while you're waiting on your other cooldowns and in need of stamina/mana regeneration, plus you can end the effect early by attacking or casting any skill.

As kinda mentioned in my previous reply, Mist Veil does too little and it simply lasting longer doesn't do much beneficial, and is often more a hinderance in practice.
While the skill CDs I do understand, ironically, the only skill you'll seriously be waiting on with that long duration IS Mist Veil, maybe Recovery if you're playing it safe. Stamina replenishes in as little as three seconds, and as a Bandit you don't tend to use much Mana with their traditional weapons. Only Scepters and Bells use mana on charge, and your skills aren't ever spammed to the point of being a serious problem of mana management.

[He Who Is Vile]

The benefit of shield is that it can auto-block attacks that would have hit you if their damage is lower than the threshold of the shield. I think? It seemed to have triggered quite a bit when waddling through lower level stuff with beefier gear. That, and you get extra power from shield enchant, which is a benefit for both sword and scepter. One tactic could simply be learn patterns with sword/scepter and shield, then optimize for big damage after.

I was skeptical about Katars considering when I started, friends were playing ranged and just running around and nuking things, then I got more into bandit and realized just how obscene their damage can get. Like, starting with katar power attack, into pay day stun into killer jab into power attack was overkill for pretty much every mob that didn't have an affix, even golems, while also being an AoE. For bosses it also worked with just slapping in Mist Veil right after to repeat the process with the power attack being used from stealth.

The bow is only redeemed with the Serrated bow, allowing it to hit multiple targets at the same time and Spread Shot being very good at the starting levels though venom shot being kind of weak as a single-target only ability and volley having the problem of small stationary ground targeting, it's still primarily a chip damage weapon.

Mystic is surprisingly better off being the group babysitter with tools like Restora and Divine, though that can burn through MP very fast even when nearing 200 of it if you or the group isn't careful but getting most of it back is about as fast as it normally would be for someone to run away to get the basic self heal going.

Fighters just become broken at the end. While the start they are powerhouses with no shortage of strong abilities they end up incredibly reliant on potions or a mystic for healing but once they get high enough for a massively extended parry window (and slightly longer parry stun) they pretty much become gods if you use the block button.