Rocket is Parasitic Design

[Queen Yuu The Reclusive]

Before I get into the meat and potatoes of this, let me ask something [That most of you will either claim is a strawman, doesn’t make sense, or ‘JUST GET TO THE POINT!’]

Have you played League of Legends? Heroes of The Storm?

If you’ve played League of Legends, then you’ve likely met Yuumi. A champion that just attaches to another target player on your team and sits there, basically AFK, spamming their shield - originally a heal - and MAYBE pressing other buttons.

I used to play Yuumi, got Mastery 7, and know there is/was more to her kit then ‘Attach, press E, repeat from step 2’.

What about Heroes of The Storm? They have a character called Abathur. He can split push and do stuff in side lanes, but he’s well known for his ‘Hat’ for other teammates. With this hat, he can shield his allies, poke enemies, and buff his hatted ally with different minor buffs per talent earned.

Now, how do these two relate to Rocket? They rely ENTIRELY on their teammates. Abathur can pick talents to do more solo-laning focus, but generally speaking the weight is shifted to his team.

Rocket, as it stands, relies on his teammates to do the bulk of the work compared to other healers. Not only are his abilities MORE focused on helping his team above himself - a one-use revive, TEAM amplifier for damage, healing - but that’s basically ALL he has. The ever-present Zero-Damage Rockets [Of which, I’ve finally run into 3 of on my time and the games were awful.] only further pushes the idea that his design is parasitic, like that of Abathur and Yuumi.

Understand this: I am a support main, I play Loki and Mantis [Working on Lord for Cloak now!], I support 3 Healer meta, and I want Netease to watch/tweak the Terrible Trio of Luna, Cloak, and Mantis [In that order!]. However, Rocket is by far the worst of every single support. Loki can copy whatever ult [In high elo, you’re basically just copying Luna/Cloak/Mantis ult or flamed.] he wants, Invis Woman is a budget Terrible Trio member, Jeff can turn a team fight or single handedly turn a game with a good ult, and… Adam has his revive, I guess! Rocket has his one-use revive armor station, a TEAM amplifier, and his healing.

Jeff has his placeable heal bubbles, Invis Woman packs more utility, and Adam and have damage share across his team with chain heals and his own respectable burst damage. Rocket, however, is JUST a healbot for his team. Rocket RELIES on his team more than any other support.

Do I think Rocket is useless? Not necessarily, however, he isn’t a good healer. As I see it, he is below even Adam, arguably the worst healer in the game [At least for me. His ult is far too weak in the grand scheme of things.] yet I don’t think it’s Rocket’s fault. I think he was designed well, but people figured out the ‘best’ way of playing him. This best method just showing exactly what he is best as: A healbot that relies on his team to win a 5v6 that has little more than a bot on their team.

I genuinely hope he is reworked. I see hope for him. Give him an ability that throws out explosives, encourage a more aggressive playstyle that can reward him and his team in some fashion, or even just remove his alt-fire for healing and make it so every 5[?] shots it fires a healing orb with a bit of a bump to his damage numbers. SOMETHING.

I shouldn’t want a worse healer in his place when Luna, Cloak, or Mantis make it through bans. I should be HAPPY to see a Rocket, not questioning ‘Is this going to be an absolute slugfest game’ or not.

[Phantom Limb]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Queen Yuu The Reclusive:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Phantom Limb:

Not sure what are you trying to imply but your usual luna, cnd and even adam to some point are healbots. Average CnD has no clue what their ult is good for so it's just spammed because shiny yeallow button is glowing. Typical Adam player revives you in the middle of nowhere just to be killed again. Luna is braindead enough to just stay behind and wait until ult is ready to be activated, but be thankful if she uses it in time instead of just save her life with it.
All healers have their flaws and playstyle of an average support player is not different between heroes. Loki might be the only special one and that's only because the way he supposed to be played. Everyone else is just the same.
Honestly, I'd rather have a good rocket in my team instead of brain rotted meta pick.

They bring nothing besides Loki as I mentioned above. If you really think that good support should be doing anything but keeping the team alive, you just as brain damaged as any dps main who picks 4th duelist and expects to carry the team because of main character syndrome.
Strategists should never ever pretend to be dps or anything else, because in most cases it will end up badly for the team.

[Frog Soup]

Heroes of the Storm mentioned. Abathur my beloved...

[Queen Yuu The Reclusive]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von gachi is manly:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Queen Yuu The Reclusive:

Is he strong because his kit is well rounded and provides utility to his team or is it because 'he's near impossible to kill and heals his team'.

If the former, I disagree. If it's the latter, that's parasitic design.

You're moving the goalposts here, though. You literally said he's the worst healer.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Queen Yuu The Reclusive:

Do I think Rocket is useless? Not necessarily, however, he isn’t a good healer. As I see it, he is below even Adam, arguably the worst healer in the game [At least for me. His ult is far too weak in the grand scheme of things.] yet I don’t think it’s Rocket’s fault. I think he was designed well, but people figured out the ‘best’ way of playing him. This best method just showing exactly what he is best as: A healbot that relies on his team to win a 5v6 that has little more than a bot on their team.

So which is it? Is he a good healer with a poorly designed (or parasitic) kit as you say, or is he just a bad healer?

Yes, he is the worst healer. I did not move the goalpost. The kit makes the healer, not their healing alone.

He is a terrible healer overall. ANY healer in the roster - maybe not Adam, because his healing is exclusively tied to cooldowns - can get massive amounts of healing each game if they JUST focus on it.

An Invis Woman with 3 meatshield tanks can heal forever and rack up numbers. A Mantis who can headshot every single shot can rack up heals. A Luna JUST aiming at tanks with her E on others can stack up healing done. Rocket being able to just toss heals out and exist, essentially pushing a 5v6 with a parasitic playstyle and kit, is not impressive.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Oodanna:

i default to Rocket for the Assist missions (because he seems to be the best healer for that) but he does not feel fun to play, he kinda just exists and watches his team do stuff while healing. part of that is no damage ability, and his m1 just feels slow and hard to hit for me

(other healers certainly have flaws but they arent the type of flaws that make them rather boring, like daggers heal m1s can be body blocked, but that doesnt make her boring to play)

Outside of Adam, at least most of those flaws don't devolve them into pure healbots like Rocket.

Adam needs to just have... something done to his ult. 50% health for every revive? His CDs refreshed? Not sure, but something.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Phantom Limb:

They bring nothing besides Loki as I mentioned above. If you really think that good support should be doing anything but keeping the team alive, you just as brain damaged as any dps main who picks 4th duelist and expects to carry the team because of main character syndrome.
Strategists should never ever pretend to be dps or anything else, because in most cases it will end up badly for the team.

Luna has a form of CC and an ult the can give damage if paired with another support ult/having 2 other healers actively healing. Mantis can constantly damage amp, has a CC, and can actually kill people. Cloak has a heal amp, area heal she can toss out, and a damage amp plus blind. Of the three must-pick supports, all three can do more than just heal. No, it isn't a 'brain damaged' take. It's looking at their kits and KNOWING they can do more than heal.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Frog Soup:

Heroes of the Storm mentioned. Abathur my beloved...

I love splitpushing as Abathur, but his design is parasitic. I had to give some examples. :(

[gachi is manly]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Queen Yuu The Reclusive:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von gachi is manly:

You're moving the goalposts here, though. You literally said he's the worst healer.



So which is it? Is he a good healer with a poorly designed (or parasitic) kit as you say, or is he just a bad healer?

Yes, he is the worst healer. I did not move the goalpost. The kit makes the healer, not their healing alone.

He is a terrible healer overall. ANY healer in the roster - maybe not Adam, because his healing is exclusively tied to cooldowns - can get massive amounts of healing each game if they JUST focus on it.

Only healers that will out-heal raccoon are Luna and C&D due to the massive amounts of healing their ultimates can give the whole team.

https://rivalstracker.com/heroes/stats

There's a reason he's one of the highest win rate and pick rate healers across all of the rankings. His pick and win rate doesn't even fall off much at GM-Celestial.

As I said before, I do agree with you that his kit isn't "healthy". It's not even particularly fun to play. He's not bad, though, not by a long shot.

He's also one of the best beneficiaries of the triple support meta, where you can hide his ultimate being worse behind two other supports with good ones.

[Queen Yuu The Reclusive]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von gachi is manly:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Queen Yuu The Reclusive:

Yes, he is the worst healer. I did not move the goalpost. The kit makes the healer, not their healing alone.

He is a terrible healer overall. ANY healer in the roster - maybe not Adam, because his healing is exclusively tied to cooldowns - can get massive amounts of healing each game if they JUST focus on it.

Only healers that will out-heal raccoon are Luna and C&D due to the massive amounts of healing their ultimates can give the whole team.

https://rivalstracker.com/heroes/stats

There's a reason he's one of the highest win rate and pick rate healers across all of the rankings. His pick and win rate doesn't even fall off much at GM-Celestial.

As I said before, I do agree with you that his kit isn't "healthy". It's not even particularly fun to play. He's not bad, though, not by a long shot.

He's has a high pickrate not only because his playstyle is literally just 'toss out heals and basically nothing else, other than don't die', but because the Zero-Damage Rocket trash is continuing to spread to people.

He is a terrible healer. He needs a rework to push him more to being a character that is more than just 'Heal, go'.

[gachi is manly]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Queen Yuu The Reclusive:

He's has a high pickrate not only because his playstyle is literally just 'toss out heals and basically nothing else, other than don't die', but because the Zero-Damage Rocket trash is continuing to spread to people.

He is a terrible healer. He needs a rework to push him more to being a character that is more than just 'Heal, go'.

And yet, it works. Because his win rate is high as well.

You need to stop conflating having a badly designed kit with him being bad, because he isn't. You can have a boring, uninteractive kit like rocket's and still be a strong pick. Which is exactly what we have right now.

[Eudicots]

Seems silly to say Rocket is poorly designed with how well he performs. He has the highest survivability and among the top 3 support win rates in season 0 for every competitive rank gold and up.

[Queen Yuu The Reclusive]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von gachi is manly:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Queen Yuu The Reclusive:

He's has a high pickrate not only because his playstyle is literally just 'toss out heals and basically nothing else, other than don't die', but because the Zero-Damage Rocket trash is continuing to spread to people.

He is a terrible healer. He needs a rework to push him more to being a character that is more than just 'Heal, go'.

And yet, it works. Because his win rate is high as well.

You need to stop conflating having a badly designed kit with him being bad, because he isn't. You can have a boring, uninteractive kit like rocket's and still be a strong pick. Which is exactly what we have right now.

Most games do NOT want to let high-winrates exist when they are tied to extremely dull character designs. It's a visible flaw in that character's design and in the game's balance if something so minimal can skyrocket a player in a ranked environment.

Again, any healer can JUST focus on healing and ignore anything in their kit that doesn't heal or strengthen healing. The price of this is putting more weight on the shoulder of your 5 teammates to win the game for you, rather than with you.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Eudicots:

Seems silly to say Rocket is poorly designed with how well he performs. He has the highest survivability and among the top 3 support win rates in season 0 for every competitive rank gold and up.

[Edit]: That was way more work to quote than needed.

[gachi is manly]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Queen Yuu The Reclusive:

Most games do NOT want to let high-winrates exist when they are tied to extremely dull character designs. It's a visible flaw in that character's design and in the game's balance if something so minimal can skyrocket a player in a ranked environment.

Again, any healer can JUST focus on healing and ignore anything in their kit that doesn't heal or strengthen healing. The price of this is putting more weight on the shoulder of your 5 teammates to win the game for you, rather than with you.

Dude, I agree with you on the design. If you actually take a second to read what I'm saying, then you'd notice that I've said multiple times exactly what you're saying here. He isn't well designed.

That doesn't mean he is a bad healer, though, which is what you insinuated. He's a very powerful support with a dull, uninteractive kit. It can be both of those things.

[juhas]

If anything, zero damage rockets only prove that he is viable even if you remove his damage potential.

Being able to melt any character up-close makes rocket anything but a parasite. Especially in lower ranks. A good rocket can:

- delete iron man
- protect your backline against any diver
- sneak around frontline tank fight to delete the enemy tank up close
- finish off low hp enemies fleeing
- walk around undetected melting anyone in a chaotic fight with healing balls bouncing around
- escape any situation without relying on help from teammates unlike other supports

The only reliance rocket has on his team is that it needs to be good enough for his kit to turn the tide (rez making fights 7vs6, 40% damage boost, consistent aoe heals, infinite ammo)

[Queen Yuu The Reclusive]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von gachi is manly:

Most games do NOT want to let high-winrates exist when they are tied to extremely dull character designs. It's a visible flaw in that character's design and in the game's balance if something so minimal can skyrocket a player in a ranked environment.

Again, any healer can JUST focus on healing and ignore anything in their kit that doesn't heal or strengthen healing. The price of this is putting more weight on the shoulder of your 5 teammates to win the game for you, rather than with you.

Dude, I agree with you on the design. If you actually take a second to read what I'm saying, then you'd notice that I've said multiple times exactly what you're saying here. He isn't well designed.

That doesn't mean he is a bad healer, though, which is what you insinuated. He's a very powerful support with a dull, uninteractive kit. It can be both of those things. [/quote]

You are saying 'he is not a bad healer' as 'he is able to heal well'.

I am saying 'he is a bad healer' because I view the ENTIRE character and their kit.

That is what I am hammering on. Can he heal? Yes, perfectly fine, BUT that's all he has going for him.

The core thing that all healers in this game SHOULD be good at. Past that, he is awful.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von juhas:

If anything, zero damage rockets only prove that he is viable even if you remove his damage potential.

Being able to melt any character up-close makes rocket anything but a parasite. Especially in lower ranks. A good rocket can:

- delete iron man
- protect your backline against any diver
- sneak around frontline tank fight to delete the enemy tank up close
- walk around undetected melting anyone in a chaotic fight with healing balls bouncing around
- escape any situation without relying on help from teammates unlike other supports

The only reliance rocket has on his team is that it needs to be good enough for his kit to turn the tide (rez making fights 7vs6, 40% damage boost, consistent aoe heals, infinite ammo)

The problem is that, even if he CAN kill people up-close, he isn't a combat healer like Mantis. Mantis ABSOLUTELY wants to be in the fight, but Rocket doesn't. He wants to be far away at range, topping his team up from the far end.

And, past that, he's just doing what is expected of a healer. His utility drastically takes a hit when you compare it to every other healer - again, save Adam. Adam is trying.

[Smellycat]

its kinda odd that his armorpack buffs come from the beacon that you have to hide for it to be effective tho ^^

[Queen Yuu The Reclusive]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Smellycat:

its kinda odd that his armorpack buffs come from the beacon that you have to hide for it to be effective tho ^^

It doesn't help that the armor they give is basically removed at the first sight of an enemy.

[Smellycat]

its kinda hard to tell if they do anything at all

[gachi is manly]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Queen Yuu The Reclusive:

That is what I am hammering on. Can he heal? Yes, perfectly fine, BUT that's all he has going for him.

The core thing that all healers in this game SHOULD be good at. Past that, he is awful.

Then why is he the top win rate support? Because he does the healing while staying alive job better than other healers.

You keep saying he's awful because he lacks utility beyond a single use revive on a long cooldown, healing, and self preservation. I'm saying that's apparently all he needs to be considered a top tier support.

Is it a fun interactive kit with lots of extra utility? Nope.

Is it a very effective kit if your main goal is winning the game? Yep.

At the end of the day, we both agree he should be changed to be more interactive and less dull. The rest is just a pointless argument on scemantics. May as well leave it at that.