The gameplay is shallow...

[Falaan]

I was back in overwatch and it is right now here as well. The game is all about the heals. If my healer doesn't shoot the enemy and heal me we win. If my healer prefers to shoot the enemy and deal 6 dmg per second. We lose. Of course there's other simple factors (bad tank, bad dps, etc.) but in the end, let's say theres a team of 6 with healers only healing teammates and another 6 who time to time shoots enemy and ignores dps'es. And say these two teams have the same aim approximately. The one with bad healers lose. I wish there was a feature to like "healed when getting a last hit" or deal 1000 damage to get 50 hp or something. I played 200 matches lost 100, 90 because of healers not focusing on heals.

[gachi is manly]

Way too situational to just say supports should always be healing and not shooting at the enemy. Luna can make flyers like Iron Man's life a living hell while still keeping her team alive. Most supports should always try to finish off a very low hp target if they can do so without their frontline dying.

Finding the proper balance between healing while still picking your windows to put some damage in is what separates mediocre support players from good ones. C&D should be trying to make the most of her cooldowns rather than just staying dagger constantly. The blind+damage amp wave is very powerful.

Like rocket just spamming healing orbs non stop on the tank isn't optimal play, for instance. They can only be healed by one ball at a time, while the rest whiz by. Better off shooting orbs at different targets or, if nothing else needs heals, even mixing in some left click.

But yea, you're not wrong. There's definitely some support players who really focus on killing too much to the detriment of the team. Worst thing is seeing a dagger player plinking away at the enemy with left clicks while somebody on her team really needs a heal.

[Terotrous]

I do sort of agree that healing output in these games tends to be slightly too high across the board, I talked about this in Overwatch as well. Because healing is very powerful, it means you need a lot of very strong burst dps abilities to get kills, which in turn makes the game feel highly volatile. I feel like if I was working on this game I would try just multiplying all heals by 0.9 (aka reduce healing by 10%) and see how that affects the game. There's a decent chance it would alter certain crucial breakpoints where a character getting consistently headshot now doesn't survive even when being pocketed whereas previously they would have.

[Falaan]

If I am playing hela, blackwidow, etc. and my luna shoots the enemy iron man, that is straight up unnecessary. Waisting time instead of healing front line and dps who can actually kill the enemy.

I saw more than 40 healer players who just try to kill the diver when the team gets dived instead of healing the diver. Let us say I play punisher. I am being dived. As a healer if you even try to shoot the enemy diver, you are doing wrong. Heal the punisher, punisher will kill the diver. If full hp, of course not but that is 1 in a 25 times situation and better to not even confuse players with this idea.

there's no fricking balance between dealing damage and healing as a healer. You go and heal the player who can take space, and kill the enemy while trying to survive. I do not want good supports over mediocre because there is no mediocre healer even, best you get is 2 / 10 skilled healer. And it is okay. Not everyone can be a super skillfull player and play bad, but if healer plays bad, it's gg and unwinnable.

I am very bored and dropping off the game at 90 hours due to having the same sin as overwatch. If you are not getting healed you die and lose period. So this makes the game's design shallow and not fun.

Originally posted by gachi is manly:

Way too situational to just say supports should always be healing and not shooting at the enemy. Luna can make flyers like Iron Man's life a living hell while still keeping her team alive. Most supports should always try to finish off a very low hp target if they can do so without their frontline dying.

Finding the proper balance between healing while still picking your windows to put some damage in is what separates mediocre support players from good ones. C&D should be trying to make the most of her cooldowns rather than just staying dagger constantly. The blind+damage amp wave is very powerful.

Like rocket just spamming healing orbs non stop on the tank isn't optimal play, for instance. They can only be healed by one ball at a time, while the rest whiz by. Better off shooting orbs at different targets or, if nothing else needs heals, even mixing in some left click.

But yea, you're not wrong. There's definitely some support players who really focus on killing too much to the detriment of the team. Worst thing is seeing a dagger player plinking away at the enemy with left clicks while somebody on her team really needs a heal.

[Falaan]

Originally posted by Terotrous:

I do sort of agree that healing output in these games tends to be slightly too high across the board, I talked about this in Overwatch as well. Because healing is very powerful, it means you need a lot of very strong burst dps abilities to get kills, which in turn makes the game feel highly volatile. I feel like if I was working on this game I would try just multiplying all heals by 0.9 (aka reduce healing by 10%) and see how that affects the game. There's a decent chance it would alter certain crucial breakpoints where a character getting consistently headshot now doesn't survive even when being pocketed whereas previously they would have.

I 100% agree, let's just add that if dps gets kill heals 50 hp, or I don't know man I am not a gamedesigner but I am sure that this gameplay can be more than "heal or lose" so frustrating and boring. I get 2 kills as captain, run for the third and die, realizing that both healers hitting the other two, brother If you heal me I kill all 6 but no.. :)

[Zeel Ara]

Play exclusively healer for a month and you will figure out how wrong you are. It's easy to form opinions without perspective, but those opinions have no value no matter how strongly you feel them.

[Terotrous]

Originally posted by Falaan:

I saw more than 40 healer players who just try to kill the diver when the team gets dived instead of healing the diver. Let us say I play punisher. I am being dived. As a healer if you even try to shoot the enemy diver, you are doing wrong. Heal the punisher, punisher will kill the diver. If full hp, of course not but that is 1 in a 25 times situation and better to not even confuse players with this idea.

Ok, on Mantis I will no longer use my CC to protect you when this happens or help you burst them down. No damage boost either. I'll just put a right click on you and peace out. Good luck Frank!

Seriously though, this is bad advice. Basically every healer in the game has a method of both healing you and damaging the enemy at the same time. Luna can use her shift, which makes her attacks pierce, thus she can heal you and hit the diver at the same time with good positioning. IW does this all the time with her primary fire. With Rocket, you can only be healed by 1 heal ball at a time, so if the heal ball is positioned properly Rocket can fire a few shots before another heal ball would accomplish anything. C&D can put the bubble on you and then switch to Cloak. Adam Warlock's heal is an instant action on a cooldown, so he can fire immediately after using it. Loki can attack while using his lamp to protect you. The only healer this really doesn't apply to is Jeff. I agree that in most cases, Jeff should just hold M1 and spit a few bubbles as needed.

Originally posted by Zeel Ara:

Play exclusively healer for a month and you will figure out how wrong you are. It's easy to form opinions without perspective, but those opinions have no value no matter how strongly you feel them.

I play healer like 90% of the time. I still think their healing output is a little too high, especially from the "be invincible" ults, but even their regular healing might be just a touch too much.

[Falaan]

Originally posted by Zeel Ara:

Play exclusively healer for a month and you will figure out how wrong you are. It's easy to form opinions without perspective, but those opinions have no value no matter how strongly you feel them.

I am playing healer usually, and I do close to everything well. I know when to use what skill and when to focus on the essential points and teammates.

I mained tank and healer in ow and here I play heals tanks and dps in this order from most to least. So you can chill and try to understand the fact that this game is only about healers healing teammates and nothing else. If my healer does anything other than rescuing, healing other teammates, you just straight up lose. Like imagine as I play dps and try to heal???? We would lose right, (I can't first of all lmao, but the same fact) then as healer you shouldn't even try to deal damage.

And I talk about only the games where it's not even about winning, it's basically unplayable when you have a bad healer, might as well have 0 healers than a bad one xd

6 v 6 one team has 1 bad tank and other has 1 bad healer, the other will lose 100 out of 100 times..

Keep lying to yourself or embrace this fact, your choice. But never ever come and assume something you are not sure about someone else buddy. :)

[Falaan]

Originally posted by Terotrous:

Originally posted by Falaan:

I saw more than 40 healer players who just try to kill the diver when the team gets dived instead of healing the diver. Let us say I play punisher. I am being dived. As a healer if you even try to shoot the enemy diver, you are doing wrong. Heal the punisher, punisher will kill the diver. If full hp, of course not but that is 1 in a 25 times situation and better to not even confuse players with this idea.

Ok, on Mantis I will no longer use my CC to protect you when this happens or help you burst them down. No damage boost either. I'll just put a right click on you and peace out. Good luck Frank!

Seriously though, this is bad advice. Basically every healer in the game has a method of both healing you and damaging the enemy at the same time. Luna can use her shift, which makes her attacks pierce, thus she can heal you and hit the diver at the same time with good positioning. IW does this all the time with her primary fire. With Rocket, you can only be healed by 1 heal ball at a time, so if the heal ball is positioned properly Rocket can fire a few shots before another heal ball would accomplish anything. C&D can put the bubble on you and then switch to Cloak. Adam Warlock's heal is an instant action on a cooldown, so he can fire immediately after using it. Loki can attack while using his lamp to protect you. The only healer this really doesn't apply to is Jeff. I agree that in most cases, Jeff should just hold M1 and spit a few bubbles as needed.

Originally posted by Zeel Ara:

Play exclusively healer for a month and you will figure out how wrong you are. It's easy to form opinions without perspective, but those opinions have no value no matter how strongly you feel them.

I play healer like 90% of the time. I still think their healing output is a little too high, especially from the "be invincible" ults, but even their regular healing might be just a touch too much.

You are trying to find points to be right instead of getting the point. Of course as mantis you will damage boost the necessary target and constantly heal your essential teammates at the given time while keeping your sleep ready for potential threats, but if the things I mentioned before are not completed and you are spamming enemy, than you are a bad player..

[Falaan]

as healer, let's say you "do something" (let it be left click with Luna, or right click with Mantis, let it be a Rocket bubble or an Adam e) 1000 times. only 20 of them should be direct hit or attack on the enemy. Mantis sleep is not direct attack, it is something to defend and enable the team, SUPPORT the team. while luna left click on the enemy is nothing but a waste of heal for another teammate.

Adam might be a good example as you only have skills to heal but still, I would win 10 out of 15 games without even using left or right click with adam and only healing necessary targets on necessary moments.

[Terotrous]

Originally posted by Falaan:

You are trying to find points to be right instead of getting the point.

I'm just pointing out that there's more nuance to it than that. Sometimes having the healer attack to burst the diver down faster is the right play, especially if they can heal you at the same time.

Like for example, if the diver is Spider Man, if you get any heal at all, you will tank his combo (it only just barely kills squishies with the full combo). In this situation, once the healer has saved you, it is better for them to try to attack Spider Man to potentially secure the kill and prevent further harassment. Even if the healer is Jeff in this situation, after you get dived he should spit one bubble, as this is enough that you will live, then try to hit Spiderman if he can. Of course, if there are multiple divers the equation changes and you have to change your response accordingly.

Playing healer is about constant threat assessment / triage. You have to constantly be aware of who needs healing and how much, and you also have to assist with offense sometimes. Knowing when to do all of these things is the mark of playing these characters well.

[Falaan]

Originally posted by Terotrous:

Originally posted by Falaan:

You are trying to find points to be right instead of getting the point.

I'm just pointing out that there's more nuance to it than that. Sometimes having the healer attack to burst the diver down faster is the right play, especially if they can heal you at the same time.

Like for example, if the diver is Spider Man, if you get any heal at all, you will tank his combo (it only just barely kills squishies with the full combo). In this situation, once the healer has saved you, it is better for them to try to attack Spider Man to potentially secure the kill and prevent further harassment. Even if the healer is Jeff in this situation, after you get dived he should spit one bubble, as this is enough that you will live, then try to hit Spiderman if he can. Of course, if there are multiple divers the equation changes and you have to change your response accordingly.

Sometimes.. I have died as a healer next to my fellow healer to a diver 100 times because my dear support trying to kill the diver instead of healing me. Now that's some nuance stuff man thanks.

I say, if the "extra" things you state, securing kill after a succesfully sustained dive, are things that a good healer can have as an extra feature yeah. But if the healer heals the player who is being dived and keeps them alive, that's more than enough. Most of the healer players can't even manage to heal their teammate when they're getting dived, becuase they are busy with "securing kill".

If I do not have a healer who is just "avarage" meaning that only heals when the diver dives instead of putting "extra" effort to even secure the kill, I am more likely to win than having a healer who tries to secure the kill and lets me die meanwhile.

If healer doesn't heal we lose, If the diver is not killed and the kill is not secured, nothing happens we move on and might win. Do you comprehend this?

[Falaan]

Before anyone comes up with "you are low elo" talk. 80 % of players are in bronze in this fricking game. Don't try to analyze this game by watching %1 player bases stream highlights. Of course only heal do nothing at all strat won't work there, below diamond (where, I repeat, the %80 percent of the player base is situated) is more than enough, and the most healthy starting point to get it going.

[Terotrous]

Originally posted by Falaan:

If healer doesn't heal we lose, If the diver is not killed and the kill is not secured, nothing happens we move on and might win. Do you comprehend this?

Of course, there are 3 main outcomes to a dive:

- The diver dies and we live. This is the best outcome
- We live, but the diver escapes, this is the neutral outcome.
- We die. This is the worst outcome.

You're pointing out that the middle outcome is better than the bottom outcome, but the top outcome is clearly the best of all.

It's worth noting though, that with some divers there is basically no option 2. Magik is one example. If she comes in, either you die or she does, she rarely disengages. The problem here is that Magik gets extra shield every time she hits, so many duelists effectively cannot kill her on their own and even when being pocketed she will overcome them eventually (probably via also landing some hits on the healer and the healer eventually dying). This is another case where you want the healer's combined DPS to try to take her out. Mantis in particular is pretty threatening to Magik even though the sleep is hard to land on her (you have to count her portals), I will often switch to Mantis if we're having Majik issues.

[Smellycat]

many heals are pretty hard to land on people running around like crackheads your often evading the enemies fire and friendly heals at the same time

[YourFreeUseHairbrush]

if your getting dove on punisher without help, its time to swap to something that isn't free dive kill.