Targeted bans

[id795078477]

To fix that, please do an easy change in S2: make it so that all the tags are pseudonymized in the lobby screen before the match starts (stuff like Player#1 .. Player #12). Banning "because known OTP" is meta-gaming and has no place in a fair competition.

Maybe add an option for a player to enable/disable this thing (though I don't feel there's any benefit of not enabling it). Oh, and when the match starts, all goes to normal - so that the chat history and "bad behavior" are trackable as usual.

EDIT 1: to address the confusion, this isn't to advocate for literal OTP-ing. Rather to address the unfair reasoning behind banning someone's strong hero picks (and yeah, nobody's getting to the tiers of being recognized if they're literal OTPs - that much should be obvious)

EDIT 2: For the arguments and lessons from OW: https://steamcommunity.com/app/2767030/discussions/0/600768722043444391/?ctp=2#c600768722043454869

[Steve]

Originally posted by id795078477:

Originally posted by ɸ It That Dwells ɸ:

I also advocate for OTP's.
I don't really see why it's okay to flex jack-of-all heroes but not okay to master one or few heroes. I don't really think it's an act of skill to ban OTP's. I would respect it more if you fought and conquered those OTP's. Ranked is meant to be fought at the highest level, and in my opinion is the most fun, particularly when you can play your favorite characters. I don't think this is a difficult concept to grasp, but others are entitled to feel the way that they do if they prefer this method of strategy in a pick/ban phase.

And the thing isn't even about OTP (god I regret using that term now). It's about preventing a behavior that isn't sportsmanship and isn't competitive. It's about making it impossible to punish someone for being too skilled on a hero. It's about making it fair.

Except that isn't fair at all?

Ban systems are there for a reason, it's part of the player intel and strategy system. It's been that way for decades now because players like being able to do that recon.

Protecting a pony's trick isn't fair at all to the vast majority of other competitive players that put the time in to learn multiple heroes and be better assets for their team. I honestly don't know if League would still be around without that feature, for example.

It is what it is. Just learn more characters. Onward and upward, yeah? Good luck out there! ^_^

[id795078477]

Originally posted by Steve:

Originally posted by id795078477:

And the thing isn't even about OTP (god I regret using that term now). It's about preventing a behavior that isn't sportsmanship and isn't competitive. It's about making it impossible to punish someone for being too skilled on a hero. It's about making it fair.

Except that isn't fair at all?

According to my interpretation - targeted bans are unfair. According to you - it's "strategy" (and is therefore "fair"). We've established that long ago. Now, I can't dissuade you from trying to "convince" me - albeit you, repeating the same wrong point over and over again, is indeed getting old - and if nothing else, it brings traffic to the thread - but at this point you should've probably accepted that there is no world in which the author of this thread will say "oh wait, you're right!". Because there is no justification for targeted bans.

Originally posted by Rhamnusia:

Originally posted by id795078477:

To fix that, please do an easy change in S2: make it so that all the tags are pseudonymized in the lobby screen before the match starts (stuff like Player#1 .. Player #12). Banning "because known OTP" is meta-gaming and has no place in a fair competition.

Maybe add an option for a player to enable/disable this thing (though I don't feel there's any benefit of not enabling it). Oh, and when the match starts, all goes to normal - so that the chat history and "bad behavior" are trackable as usual.

EDIT 1: to address the confusion, this isn't to advocate for literal OTP-ing. Rather to address the unfair reasoning behind banning someone's strong hero picks (and yeah, nobody's getting to the tiers of being recognized if they're literal OTPs - that much should be obvious)

EDIT 2: For the arguments and lessons from OW: https://steamcommunity.com/app/2767030/discussions/0/600768722043444391/?ctp=2#c600768722043454869

i thought the game had a 'streamer mode' to hide identity

It doesn't work that way, the lobby will still see the tag.

[Queen Yuu The Reclusive]

I agree with hiding player names, but I'm not opposed to targeted bans. If the enemy has the BEST, say, Starlord in the world on their team that is basically Shroud, I'm all for removing his pick to make the game easier.

[Steve]

Originally posted by id795078477:

Originally posted by Steve:

Except that isn't fair at all?

According to my interpretation - targeted bans are unfair. According to you - it's "strategy" (and is therefore "fair"). We've established that long ago. Now, I can't dissuade you from trying to "convince" me - albeit you, repeating the same wrong point over and over again, is indeed getting old - and if nothing else, it brings traffic to the thread - but at this point you should've probably accepted that there is no world in which the author of this thread will say "oh wait, you're right!". Because there is no justification for targeted bans.

...it doesn't matter how you interpret it? It just is what it is. It's not deep, nor is it specifically a thing that targets you and you alone?

Now, IDK who you are so I'm hoping you'll help me understand here -- why is this such a big personal matter for you? How is this ban feature affecting you to the point that you're calling for a change few, if any people, actually call for?

And you don't have to say I'm right. This isn't a contest. This is just logic and reason. The change you seek would have an overall detrimental effect on strategy and intel, as well as encourage more one-trick ponies (which are not at all healthy for MOBAs or team-based hero shooters).

[Steve]

Originally posted by Queen Yuu The Reclusive:

I agree with hiding player names, but I'm not opposed to targeted bans. If the enemy has the BEST, say, Starlord in the world on their team that is basically Shroud, I'm all for removing his pick to make the game easier.

Hiding the player names would negate a lot of the utility that tracker sites provide, though. Competitive players rely on sites like that to help make those strategic decisions pre-match. If you don't know who you're fighting until it's too late, then what would be the point at all?

[id795078477]

Originally posted by Queen Yuu The Reclusive:

I agree with hiding player names, but I'm not opposed to targeted bans. If the enemy has the BEST, say, Starlord in the world on their team that is basically Shroud, I'm all for removing his pick to make the game easier.

Congrats, you're willing to engage into something that's not sportsmanship. You're willing to punish someone for being good at the hero. You're not "wrong" individually (as we're all selfish to a different extent and it's just in human nature), but it's very wrong collectively in the long run. It will drive skillful players away (at least more than if this wasn't a thing). It's not healthy for the game.

P.S. At this point I'm just willing to extend my gratitude to one special member of this community. Steve - thanks, mate, you skyrocketed this thread from a likely oblivion to a popularity level I frankly did not expect. Cheers!

[Queen Yuu The Reclusive]

Originally posted by Steve:

Originally posted by Queen Yuu The Reclusive:

I agree with hiding player names, but I'm not opposed to targeted bans. If the enemy has the BEST, say, Starlord in the world on their team that is basically Shroud, I'm all for removing his pick to make the game easier.

Hiding the player names would negate a lot of the utility that tracker sites provide, though. Competitive players rely on sites like that to help make those strategic decisions pre-match. If you don't know who you're fighting until it's too late, then what would be the point at all?

Good players punish who they're against during banning phase, great players beat who they're against even when on their best characters.

I'd rather ban out a OTP's pick, but you bet it'd be more rewarding to BEAT their pick.

[Steve]

Originally posted by Queen Yuu The Reclusive:

Originally posted by Steve:

Hiding the player names would negate a lot of the utility that tracker sites provide, though. Competitive players rely on sites like that to help make those strategic decisions pre-match. If you don't know who you're fighting until it's too late, then what would be the point at all?

Good players punish who they're against during banning phase, great players beat who they're against even when on their best characters.

I'd rather ban out a OTP's pick, but you bet it'd be more rewarding to BEAT their pick.

Oh, I agree personally, but there needs to be the option remaining intact, I feel. Neutering a ban system has some pretty negative consequences for a competitive title like this.

If players had less concern about bans, and esp. anonymity pre-match, there'd be a hell of a lot more one-trick ponies cluttering the queues, because no one would be motivated beyond personal desire to improve at any other characters. Players would be less versatile and more specialized, which can throw off matchmaking badly.

Humans are a funny species, ain't we? XD

[Queen Yuu The Reclusive]

Originally posted by id795078477:

Originally posted by Queen Yuu The Reclusive:

I agree with hiding player names, but I'm not opposed to targeted bans. If the enemy has the BEST, say, Starlord in the world on their team that is basically Shroud, I'm all for removing his pick to make the game easier.

Congrats, you're willing to engage into something that's not sportsmanship. You're willing to punish someone for being good at the hero. You're not "wrong" individually (as we're all selfish to a different extent and it's just in human nature), but it's very wrong collectively in the long run. It will drive skillful players away (at least more than if this wasn't a thing). It's not healthy for the game.

P.S. At this point I'm just willing to extend my gratitude to one special member of this community. Steve - thanks, mate, you skyrocketed this thread from a likely oblivion to a popularity I frankly did not expect. Cheers!

I stopped playing Heroes of the Storm because ranked games were faster to get into here, the game is enjoyable, and the community is large enough to where my pick isn't target banned. I don't care if it isn't nice to target ban: This is a competitive game. The goal is to win.

Quickmatch? Goal is to win. Event mode? Goal is to win. Ranked? Goal is to win.

A game that is innately competitive has one goal: To win. Yes, fun matters, but winning is fun in a game of skill. I'm not saying this to be a tryhard, I'm saying it because it's the honest truth. I'll target ban someone without a second thought because I expect the same in return.

[Edit]: Just read the last bit over: Actually good players aren't screwed over by a target ban. They can play other things. If you can only play a single character in a game like this, go play a game where you don't need to adapt.

[id795078477]

Originally posted by Queen Yuu The Reclusive:

Actually good players aren't screwed over by a target ban. They can play other things. If you can only play a single character in a game like this, go play a game where you don't need to adapt.

By that logic, actually good players don't need to handicap their opponents by depriving them of playing their best hero(-es). Good players can win it fair and square, through their skill, relying on the in-game stuff, not underhanded abuse of the knowledge pertaining to individual plaers.

But of well, that's my point anyways. I know those who disagree will not see that point.

[Terotrous]

Definitely no to the OP's suggestion. The reason for this is because in pro play this happens a lot, so you need to learn how to deal with it if you're starting to approach that level. Even if the game hid your name they could still ban your hero anyway so you're going to have to learn to play multiple characters.

[SecretSins187]

Good players punish who they're against during banning phase, great players beat who they're against even when on their best characters.

[/quote]

Good players affect the game with their best character; great players affect the game before it even starts.

The OP uses the word “Metagame” like it’s a bad thing, but it’s the whole reason why the pick/ban system is there in the first place.

Usually there are characters that are perma banned. Also, a team may want to ban a character that counters their strategy— like banning Namor when running a dive-heavy comp.

Just your presence adds complexity to these choices, because it means something else has to get through. So take it as a compliment, learn to play Storm, and make them pay.

As others have said, targeted bans happen all the time at the top levels of play.