Targeted bans

[id795078477]

To fix that, please do an easy change in S2: make it so that all the tags are pseudonymized in the lobby screen before the match starts (stuff like Player#1 .. Player #12). Banning "because known OTP" is meta-gaming and has no place in a fair competition.

Maybe add an option for a player to enable/disable this thing (though I don't feel there's any benefit of not enabling it). Oh, and when the match starts, all goes to normal - so that the chat history and "bad behavior" are trackable as usual.

EDIT 1: to address the confusion, this isn't to advocate for literal OTP-ing. Rather to address the unfair reasoning behind banning someone's strong hero picks (and yeah, nobody's getting to the tiers of being recognized if they're literal OTPs - that much should be obvious)

EDIT 2: For the arguments and lessons from OW: https://steamcommunity.com/app/2767030/discussions/0/600768722043444391/?ctp=2#c600768722043454869

[xBALOx]

wtf u talking about. This is a online game not real life. chill and block ppl or just disaable "team chat" in social tab

[Steve]

Originally posted by id795078477:

To fix that, please do an easy change in S2: make it so that all the tags are pseudonymized in the lobby screen before the match starts (stuff like Player#1 .. Player #12). Banning "because known OTP" is meta-gaming and has no place in a fair competition.

Maybe add an option for a player to enable/disable this thing (though I don't feel there's any benefit of not enabling it). Oh, and when the match starts, all goes to normal - so that the chat history and "bad behavior" are trackable as usual.

Learn more tricks. Simple.

[id795078477]

Originally posted by Steve:

Originally posted by id795078477:

To fix that, please do an easy change in S2: make it so that all the tags are pseudonymized in the lobby screen before the match starts (stuff like Player#1 .. Player #12). Banning "because known OTP" is meta-gaming and has no place in a fair competition.

Maybe add an option for a player to enable/disable this thing (though I don't feel there's any benefit of not enabling it). Oh, and when the match starts, all goes to normal - so that the chat history and "bad behavior" are trackable as usual.

Learn more tricks. Simple.

That's fair, but at the same time it forces the competition to not be at its finest. People very rarely can be "the same" on multiple heroes, there almost always is a preferred/dominant pick.

Bans because of the state of the meta/personal preference are fine, it's not unfair. But banning because you know the enemy player is good on a hero is cheese, it's meta-gaming. It never feels fair.

What's worse - I see people already do workarounds for that. Known OTPs simply create alt accounts with different names to stop being recognized. But that's bad for three reasons: first - those players have to invest a lot of effort into each such account; second - on their way up they ruin experience for a lot of low tier players; third - they can never stop doing it because sooner or later (rather sooner) they will be recognized under new tag anyways.

I just don't see any argument against it. It seems to be an easy fix with no downsides and only benefits to show. Those OTPs can still get their heroes banned, so technically "they need to know more than 1 hero" still stands. It just disables the meta-gaming and the cheese through the lobby.

Originally posted by xBALOx:

wtf u talking about. This is a online game not real life. chill and block ppl or just disaable "team chat" in social tab

Yeah, it's alright, you didn't get it - and to be honest, the request doesn't affect 99.999% of players.

[Steve]

Originally posted by id795078477:

Originally posted by Steve:

Learn more tricks. Simple.

That's fair, but at the same time it forces the competition to not be at its finest. People very rarely can be "the same" on multiple heroes, there almost always is a preferred/dominant pick.

I'm gonna need to stop you right there for a sec, if you don't mind.

To be a one-trick pony on a game like this is a huge detriment to ANY team, even Bronze III hardstucks, because it's not the nature of the game. If players are given the option to play multiple characters and roles in a competitive shooter, it's WIDELY expected that the player in question know at least one character from each available role.

In this case, the BASIC player (not even average, just the bare minimum here) should know a healer, a tank, and a damage hero.

To expect otherwise -- esp. to expect to be able to play just ONE hero out of the whole lineup -- is exactly why there's a pick ban option. That kind of gameplay is WHOLLY discouraged by both the playerbases, and developers themselves.

No offense, but you're 100% in the wrong here given the nature of this genre.

[Sawblade Shieldslave]

i love banning the 2 characters someone plays cuz it keeps those dogwater unflexable players down at the elo they belong

[id795078477]

Originally posted by Steve:

Originally posted by id795078477:

That's fair, but at the same time it forces the competition to not be at its finest. People very rarely can be "the same" on multiple heroes, there almost always is a preferred/dominant pick.

I'm gonna need to stop you right there for a sec, if you don't mind.

To be a one-trick pony on a game like this is a huge detriment to ANY team, even Bronze III hardstucks, because it's not the nature of the game. If players are given the option to play multiple characters and roles in a competitive shooter, it's WIDELY expected that the player in question know at least one character from each available role.

In this case, the BASIC player (not even average, just the bare minimum here) should know a healer, a tank, and a damage hero.

To expect otherwise -- esp. to expect to be able to play just ONE hero out of the whole lineup -- is exactly why there's a pick ban option. That kind of gameplay is WHOLLY discouraged by both the playerbases, and developers themselves.

No offense, but you're 100% in the wrong here given the nature of this genre.

My wording on "OTP" is probably something I'll regret. I didn't mean it in a literal sense. But there are undeniably talented players on certain heroes, often non-meta heroes. So when the lobby faces those players, they ban their strong pick and deprive them of the opportunity to show their skill.

What's more - if oftentimes goes against meta at all, just in spite of such players. Simply because the lobby wants to play the meta and doesn't know / doesn't want to deal with unconventional enemy picks (yeah and then everyone complains about "stale meta")

No offense, but you need to read it properly. I never advocated for OTPs literally only playing one hero. Only for removing the opportunity to ban someone's hero picks because they're known for those picks. So I'm 100% in the right here.

[Alt]

Originally posted by Steve:

Originally posted by id795078477:

That's fair, but at the same time it forces the competition to not be at its finest. People very rarely can be "the same" on multiple heroes, there almost always is a preferred/dominant pick.

I'm gonna need to stop you right there for a sec, if you don't mind.

To be a one-trick pony on a game like this is a huge detriment to ANY team, even Bronze III hardstucks, because it's not the nature of the game. If players are given the option to play multiple characters and roles in a competitive shooter, it's WIDELY expected that the player in question know at least one character from each available role.

In this case, the BASIC player (not even average, just the bare minimum here) should know a healer, a tank, and a damage hero.

To expect otherwise -- esp. to expect to be able to play just ONE hero out of the whole lineup -- is exactly why there's a pick ban option. That kind of gameplay is WHOLLY discouraged by both the playerbases, and developers themselves.

No offense, but you're 100% in the wrong here given the nature of this genre.

Its funny reading this. Because if you look at leadership board. Around 70% of top 0.5% players are mostly one tricking. They have 1 at most 2 heroes with a lot of hours. And every other hero has no more than 1-2 hours of playtime. How can one tricking be a huge detriment, when it is clearly works for majority of players at the ranked top?

I support OP, because i saw how enemy team banned certain hero DPS on second match, because player utterly dominated them with said DPS. And that character was Black Widow to boot.

[Steve]

Originally posted by id795078477:

Originally posted by Steve:

I'm gonna need to stop you right there for a sec, if you don't mind.

To be a one-trick pony on a game like this is a huge detriment to ANY team, even Bronze III hardstucks, because it's not the nature of the game. If players are given the option to play multiple characters and roles in a competitive shooter, it's WIDELY expected that the player in question know at least one character from each available role.

In this case, the BASIC player (not even average, just the bare minimum here) should know a healer, a tank, and a damage hero.

To expect otherwise -- esp. to expect to be able to play just ONE hero out of the whole lineup -- is exactly why there's a pick ban option. That kind of gameplay is WHOLLY discouraged by both the playerbases, and developers themselves.

No offense, but you're 100% in the wrong here given the nature of this genre.

My wording on "OTP" is probably something I'll regret. I didn't mean it in a literal sense. But there are undeniably talented players on certain heroes, often non-meta heroes. So when the lobby faces those players, they ban their strong pick and deprive them of the opportunity to show their skill.

What's more - if oftentimes goes against meta at all, just in spite of such players. Simply because the lobby wants to play the meta and doesn't know / doesn't want to deal with unconventional enemy picks (yeah and then everyone complains about "stale meta")

No offense, but you need to read it properly. I never advocated for OTPs literally only playing one hero. Only for removing the opportunity to ban someone's hero picks because they're known for those picks. So I'm 100% in the right here.

Playing only one hero is literally being a one-trick pony.

[id795078477]

Originally posted by Alt:

Originally posted by Steve:

I'm gonna need to stop you right there for a sec, if you don't mind.

To be a one-trick pony on a game like this is a huge detriment to ANY team, even Bronze III hardstucks, because it's not the nature of the game. If players are given the option to play multiple characters and roles in a competitive shooter, it's WIDELY expected that the player in question know at least one character from each available role.

In this case, the BASIC player (not even average, just the bare minimum here) should know a healer, a tank, and a damage hero.

To expect otherwise -- esp. to expect to be able to play just ONE hero out of the whole lineup -- is exactly why there's a pick ban option. That kind of gameplay is WHOLLY discouraged by both the playerbases, and developers themselves.

No offense, but you're 100% in the wrong here given the nature of this genre.

Its funny reading this. Because if you look at leadership board. Around 70% of top 0.5% players are mostly one tricking. They have 1 at most 2 heroes with a lot of hours. And every other hero has no more than 1-2 hours of playtime. How can one tricking be a huge detriment, when it is clearly works for majority of players at the ranked top?

I support OP, because i saw how enemy team banned certain hero DPS on second match, because player utterly dominated them with said DPS. And that character was Black Widow to boot.

"Mostly" is the critical difference. They also can play something else, just not as good. And why should there be a mechanism to punish players for just being good at the hero? What's the point? "You're so good at that so we aren't letting you play it" is the dumbest justification I've seen in a long time.

To be clear - if such player mains a meta-hero (or their off-meta hero suddenly became meta) and the ban is issued because - well, it's meta, then = fair move, go play something else, literal OTPs cannot belong to high tiers. But that's a completely different reason. All I want is to completely remove the cheesy route for the lobby to punish someone for their skill.

Originally posted by Steve:

Playing only one hero is literally being a one-trick pony.

Yeah, could we please move on from that? I explained what I mean and advocate for - and that it's not literal "playing only one hero, all the times". I didn't mean such players use "only one" hero. I only used "OTP" to save on typing (which I now regret)

[Steve]

Originally posted by id795078477:

Originally posted by Alt:

Its funny reading this. Because if you look at leadership board. Around 70% of top 0.5% players are mostly one tricking. They have 1 at most 2 heroes with a lot of hours. And every other hero has no more than 1-2 hours of playtime. How can one tricking be a huge detriment, when it is clearly works for majority of players at the ranked top?

I support OP, because i saw how enemy team banned certain hero DPS on second match, because player utterly dominated them with said DPS. And that character was Black Widow to boot.

"Mostly" is the critical difference. They also can play something else, just not as good. And why should there be a mechanism to punish players for just being good at the hero? What's the point? "You're so good at that so we aren't letting you play it" is the dumbest justification I've seen in a long time.

To be clear - if such player mains a meta-hero (or their off-meta hero suddenly became meta) and the ban is issued because - well, it's meta, then = fair play, go play something else, literal OTPs cannot belong to high tiers. But that's a completely different reason. All I want is to completely remove the cheesy route for the lobby to punish someone for their skill.

It's not skill in this genre to know only one character, though. I don't understand the thought process here.

Once again, this genre DEMANDS the player know more than one character. This is the primary reason for the pick ban feature -- to handicap a player that constantly picks one character and force them onto another.

THAT IS A KEY PIECE OF STRATEGY FOR A GAME LIKE THIS. I need you to understand that.

[Steve]

Originally posted by id795078477:

Originally posted by Steve:

Playing only one hero is literally being a one-trick pony.

Yeah, could we please move on from that? I explained what I mean and advocate for - and that it's not literal "playing only one hero, all the times". I didn't mean such players use "only one" hero. I only used "OTP" to save on typing (which I now regret)

Sure, I can reword it.

Being an insufficiently-skilled player that only knows 1-2 characters is a huge detriment to the other players on that player's team, and it's strongly discouraged. This is the reason, YET AGAIN, for that pick ban feature. It is there BECAUSE PLAYING 1-2 CHARACTERS ONLY IS HIGHLY UNDESIRABLE FOR BOTH THE PLAYERBASE AND THE DEVELOPERS.

I don't know why this isn't getting through.

[id795078477]

Originally posted by Steve:

Originally posted by id795078477:

"Mostly" is the critical difference. They also can play something else, just not as good. And why should there be a mechanism to punish players for just being good at the hero? What's the point? "You're so good at that so we aren't letting you play it" is the dumbest justification I've seen in a long time.

To be clear - if such player mains a meta-hero (or their off-meta hero suddenly became meta) and the ban is issued because - well, it's meta, then = fair play, go play something else, literal OTPs cannot belong to high tiers. But that's a completely different reason. All I want is to completely remove the cheesy route for the lobby to punish someone for their skill.

It's not skill in this genre to know only one character, though. I don't understand the thought process here.

Once again, this genre DEMANDS the player know more than one character. This is the primary reason for the pick ban feature -- to handicap a player that constantly picks one character and force them onto another.

THAT IS A KEY PIECE OF STRATEGY FOR A GAME LIKE THIS. I need you to understand that.

Wow, it's the first time someone "needs" something from me on these forums. But okay - then I need you to understand that a game that punishes its players for exhibiting skill is self-defeating. There must never be a mechanism that allows for such a thing, no matter what other things there are. It's pointless to argue about if it's good or not to allow players to use only one hero. It's pointless to say there are too few of them. All those things are completely unrelated.

It's a matter of principle. I'm not going to change my mind on that.

[CoronaChan]

Uah no target banning is fine. Its a test of skill. I got target banned yesterday in diamond 2. Had my cloak banned so had to fall bavk on my invis. Still won the game it was just annoying. If you cant handle target bans than you dont
Deserve to be in the top echelon. Also target bans are a sign of strength.

Take the jeff main BigDNikTheThrd in top 500. He gets jeff target banned because he is insane on the pick. That means hulk, wolverine etc arent nexesaarily banned drastically changing potential picks and ♥♥♥♥. Like seriously he is such a menace he draws a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ jeff ban. Thats power i should desire to draw target bans. It means that what is actually op isnt getting banned

[Steve]

Originally posted by id795078477:

Originally posted by Steve:

It's not skill in this genre to know only one character, though. I don't understand the thought process here.

Once again, this genre DEMANDS the player know more than one character. This is the primary reason for the pick ban feature -- to handicap a player that constantly picks one character and force them onto another.

THAT IS A KEY PIECE OF STRATEGY FOR A GAME LIKE THIS. I need you to understand that.

Wow, it's the first time someone "needs" something from me on these forums. But okay - then I need you to understand that a game that punishes its players for exhibiting skill is self-defeating. There must never be a mechanism that allows for such a thing, no matter what other things there are. It's pointless to argue about if it's good or not to allow players to use only one hero. It's pointless to say there are too few of them. It's a matter of principle. I'm not going to change my mind on that.

Okay. Tell that to the rest of the genre. And MOBAs, while you're at it.

League, OW2, and this all seem to be doing just fine without drastically reinventing the wheel.

You can die on this hill (figuratively speaking, of course) all you want. But you will die on this hill (again and always, figuratively speaking) without the genre-breaking change. I can guarantee that.

Why not just learn more heroes? Very serious question.

[Steve]

Originally posted by CoronaChan:

Uah no target banning is fine. Its a test of skill. I got target banned yesterday in diamond 2. Had my cloak banned so had to fall bavk on my invis. Still won the game it was just annoying. If you cant handle target bans than you dont
Deserve to be in the top echelon. Also target bans are a sign of strength.

Take the jeff main BigDNikTheThrd in top 500. He gets jeff target banned because he is insane on the pick. That means hulk, wolverine etc arent nexesaarily banned drastically changing potential picks and ♥♥♥♥. Like seriously he is such a menace he draws a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ jeff ban. Thats power i should desire to draw target bans. It means that what is actually op isnt getting banned

This guy gets it.