Mr. Fantastic is a vanguard, not a duelist. Please change his label.

[Veldstadt]

I am sick and tired of explaining to every lobby that, in terms of skill set, Mr. Fantastic is at least a vanguard/duelist hybrid, and at worst, a mislabeled vanguard.

His whole schtick is basically either body bumping enemies / teammates, stretching, and getting a hit or two in before inflating, gaining 400 shield. After which you use the left shift ability to survive after getting into close combat.

If anything, he does exactly what a vanguard does; stay on point/payload, and damage enemies close to payload. He doesn't have the mobility that other duelists have, nor does he have the damage output of a duelist. Even his ultimate ability is much closer to vanguard ultimates than duelist ultimates.

Please, please change the label so that I don't have to deal with people constantly in lobbies who scream and kick about him being a duelist, despite not understanding his abilities. Please.

[Null Winter]

Counter-point: With DPSers always instalocking and refusing to swap, this means you always get an off-tank because the usual scrubs will instalock the new character.

[Veldstadt]

Originally posted by Null Winter:

Counter-point: With DPSers always instalocking and refusing to swap, this means you always get an off-tank because the usual scrubs will instalock the new character.

I think the headache of me, having to explain every lobby, that he's a mislabeled vanguard only to be met with unwanted ridicule (especially in competitive) and accused of throwing the game is really, really annoying, to the point that I *avoid* playing him, even though I like his kit.

The strategists also are confused. Why would they heal a duelist, when they have vanguards to heal? They are, mostly (besides dive tanking) relatively immobile, staying close to objective. Fantastic doesn't get the label of vanguard, and so strategists don't take him as a vanguard on face value.

[Flishster]

He really isn't. He can do SOME tanking but if Mr. Fantastic is your only tank, he will get absolutely crushed. He's only tanky after he's already gotten a lot of damage in, meaning you either have to play with your team and not take too much fire so you can enter big boy mode, defeating the purpose of a tank, or you have to sneak into the backline to pick off their healers so you can enter big boy mode. And then you're only tanky for a few seconds and can't even use any of your abilities besides you lmb. Really, the 'tankiness' is just making up for the fact you're suddenly a bigger target.

He does get some bonus health from his other abilities but that is by no means unique to him, many of the dualists do, and far more reliably, too.

You could consider him an off-tank, that might be somewhat accurate, but in reality he's kind of just a flexible battler who can sneak into the backline, help defend the frontline, focus single targets, or damage multiple targets at different points in the game. You might soak up more damage as him than most other DPS characters, but so does Invisible Woman, I'd argue she's even more of a defensive wall than Mister Fantastic, but no one is arguing that she's a strategist.

[Veldstadt]

Originally posted by Flishster:

He really isn't. He can do SOME tanking but if Mr. Fantastic is your only tank, he will get absolutely crushed. He's only tanky after he's already gotten a lot of damage in, meaning you either have to play with your team and not take too much fire so you can enter big boy mode, defeating the purpose of a tank, or you have to sneak into the backline to pick off their healers so you can enter big boy mode. And then you're only tanky for a few seconds and can't even use any of your abilities besides you lmb. Really, the 'tankiness' is just making up for the fact you're suddenly a bigger target.

You could consider him an off-tank, that might be somewhat accurate, but in reality he's kind of just a flexible battler who can sneak into the backline, help defend the frontline, focus single targets, or damage multiple targets at different points in the game. You might soak up more damage as him than most other DPS characters, but so does Invisible Woman, I'd argue she's even more of a defensive wall than Mister Fantastic, but no one is arguing that she's a strategist.

I have to hard disagree. You can inflate in the spawn room, if you wish, and requires 0 damage to inflate. You gain a flat 30 stretch for every 'E' and 'RMouse' you do, even if the right click misses the target. Even if he is only 'tanky' for a few seconds, the passive is so repeatable (remember, cooldowns refresh in big boy mode) he can do it again in less than the time he is vulnerable. There is also the fact that the shields RECHARGE.

Mr. Fantasic, I would say, isn't a great stealth character only because his movement tech requires a character to be within reach. Even if he hit backline, it would be a death sentence to him because he doesn't really have the damage output!

For these reasons, I don't consider him an off tank due to it.

As for invisible woman, she blocks a lot of damage, sure, but her kit suggests that she stay near backline, constantly moving shield and targeting teammates. Her ultimate is also relevant to the class. I think that's why there's less bickering about her role.

[Wanderer]

Yeah Mr. Fantastic is not a mislabeled vanguard lmao. He gets *some armor* like Wolverine does.

[Veldstadt]

Originally posted by Wanderer:

Yeah Mr. Fantastic is not a mislabeled vanguard lmao.

And what is your evidence?

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by Veldstadt:

Originally posted by Wanderer:

Yeah Mr. Fantastic is not a mislabeled vanguard lmao.

And what is your evidence?

Me melting him faster than any tank using Hela. His armor isn't reliable enough to keep him up. Actual tanks like Penny and Groot can self heal *way more reliably*.

Maybe he's kinda like Hulk but that's stretching it. (Get it?)

He is a tanky duelist tho like wolverine imo.

[Veldstadt]

Originally posted by Wanderer:

Originally posted by Veldstadt:

And what is your evidence?

Me melting him faster than any tank using Hela.

Ok, so are you doing this outside big boy mode? Are you doing this when he is doing his left shift? Is it because there is a skill difference between the you and the other player? Is your team supporting you in the kill? It's very anecdotal.

[Midnight]

All of the vanguards can work when played solo. Some better than others but all are usable.

Mr fantastic is NOT usable in such scenario. And so is not a vanguard.

[Space DVAs69]

Agreed. He plays way more like Thor and Captain America. They should just make Mr. Fantastic a Tank already.

[Vinnolo]

he is tanky only if others give him enough time to inflate/fill his bar, he cant tank alone, gets thorn to shreds fast

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by Veldstadt:

Originally posted by Wanderer:

Me melting him faster than any tank using Hela.

Ok, so are you doing this outside big boy mode? Are you doing this when he is doing his left shift? Is it because there is a skill difference between the you and the other player? Is your team supporting you in the kill? It's very anecdotal.

He's not always in big boy mode. It's like being tanky *sometimes* rather than *all the time*.

He simply doesn't have the kit to be a solo tank, so he shouldn't be labelled as vanguard until his kit actually supports that. He's too team reliant, actual tanks aren't.

[Veldstadt]

Originally posted by Midnight:

All of the vanguards can work when played solo. Some better than others but all are usable.

Mr fantastic is NOT usable in such scenario. And so is not a vanguard.

What do you mean by this?
How exactly does Thor, Hulk, or Venom work solo?

[Vinnolo]

Originally posted by Veldstadt:

Originally posted by Midnight:

All of the vanguards can work when played solo. Some better than others but all are usable.

Mr fantastic is NOT usable in such scenario. And so is not a vanguard.

What do you mean by this?
How exactly does Thor, Hulk, or Venom work solo?

hulk has gamma shield and his E to mitigate damage, thor gains health every time he uses thor force, venom has a huge shield basically more than doubling his health, for a few moments on low hp (and can easily get in or out of fights)

[Flishster]

Originally posted by Veldstadt:

Originally posted by Flishster:

He really isn't. He can do SOME tanking but if Mr. Fantastic is your only tank, he will get absolutely crushed. He's only tanky after he's already gotten a lot of damage in, meaning you either have to play with your team and not take too much fire so you can enter big boy mode, defeating the purpose of a tank, or you have to sneak into the backline to pick off their healers so you can enter big boy mode. And then you're only tanky for a few seconds and can't even use any of your abilities besides you lmb. Really, the 'tankiness' is just making up for the fact you're suddenly a bigger target.

You could consider him an off-tank, that might be somewhat accurate, but in reality he's kind of just a flexible battler who can sneak into the backline, help defend the frontline, focus single targets, or damage multiple targets at different points in the game. You might soak up more damage as him than most other DPS characters, but so does Invisible Woman, I'd argue she's even more of a defensive wall than Mister Fantastic, but no one is arguing that she's a strategist.

I have to hard disagree. You can inflate in the spawn room, if you wish, and requires 0 damage to inflate. You gain a flat 30 stretch for every 'E' and 'RMouse' you do, even if the right click misses the target. Even if he is only 'tanky' for a few seconds, the passive is so repeatable (remember, cooldowns refresh in big boy mode) he can do it again in less than the time he is vulnerable. There is also the fact that the shields RECHARGE.

Mr. Fantasic, I would say, isn't a great stealth character only because his movement tech requires a character to be within reach. Even if he hit backline, it would be a death sentence to him because he doesn't really have the damage output!

For these reasons, I don't consider him an off tank due to it.

As for invisible woman, she blocks a lot of damage, sure, but her kit suggests that she stay near backline, constantly moving shield and targeting teammates. Her ultimate is also relevant to the class. I think that's why there's less bickering about her role.

There are absolutely ways to make use of his abilities to make him stay bulkier, sure, but they all require certain conditions to be met- you're clumped up with your teammates in spawn, the enemy team isn't punishing you for attacking them properly, the enemy team is only using projectile classes, etc.

And I definitely agree he is not a great backliner. But he absolutely can do it. I've more than once waltzed into the backline through a side corridor and beat the crap out of the healers. He might not do a ton of damage, but he can absolutely kill just about any of the healers before they can kill him, and he's also VERY good at preventing them from running away. I wouldn't say he's great at anything, but he can certainly do most roles you'd want on a team to some extent.