The real problem with Spider-Man a short explanation

[WarGreymon]

Spider-Man is one of the most powerful characters in the game and in this thread I will explain why he has to be toned down / nerfed for the good of the game. His is among the most picked characters across the board and people ban him over the Winder Soldier. To be clear I don't want the character to be useless I want him to be inline with the rest of the roster.

1. Mobility - Spider-Man is the most mobile character in the game. This allows him to engage and disengage with lighting fast speed and he move across vast distances in seconds. He is so fast that the Scarlet Witch's auto lock can't grab him.

On a side note he can stay in the air practically all the time. I was messing around in the training room with the swing and using just the swing, uppercut and double hump (the double jump resets after you use a skill) I was able to stay in the air for over a minute and thirty second before I messed up and hit a wall because I was watching the coldowns not the map (I don't play Spider-Man so I don't have an instinctive feel for his cooldown timers). If I can do that on my first try of seeing how long I can stay in the air without touching the ground I am pretty sure an experienced Spider-Man can stay in the air pretty much indefinitely. Yes this a controlled environment but the point is that he can do that just with three of his skills.

2. His kit. Overall Spider-Man's kit has insane synergy. Pretty much all of his skills work off each other and he is capable of ridiculous combination that are not limited to his attacks.

He can do all of this and more:

- He can move across a full map in seconds. His mobility is ridiculous.
- He can double jump.
- He has a damage self-buff.
- He has a pull. As a bonus that pull can throw you off the map.
- The pull can be used as a zip for even more mobility.
- He can shutdown ultimate moves.
- He can wall crawl and run.
- He has a sense that alerts him if someone is close.
- He has a ranged attack.
- He has a relatively easy one-hit combo.
- He has an uppercut that throws enemies in the air and is a soft crowd control.
- His skills have multiple charges. The ranged shots have 5 the uppercut has 2 and so on.
- His ultimate is an area of effect damage with slow and he gets bonus health during the ult.
- His ultimate can stun.
- His melee hit box is quite forgiving.
- His own hit box is not that large making him harder to hit.
- He can engage and disengage very easily allowing him to succeed or simply run away to reset with pretty low risk.
- Because of his very over-tuned kit his counters are not very effective.

I can keep going but this list should be enough to make a point. No other character in the game has a kit that is this decked out. It's just too much.

3. Combat. Spider-Man's cooldowns are very short and his skills have multiple charges. Combined with his mobility this allows him to go in and out fast, deal massive damage, and reset. Even if he fails he has an out and he can just wait a few seconds to go in again. He has a one-shot combo. His spider tracers are very easy to apply, his damage is buffed and he has built in soft crowd control in his skills. He can pull the target to him or zip himself to it. When he zips to the target he lifts it in the air. He can pull people off the map. His ranged attack has five charges on a short cooldown. His uppercut is an area of effect with two charges a short cooldown and it lifts the target in the air. Spider-Man can uppercut people when his back is turned on them. His ultimate gives him two hundred fifty extra health and it's an area of effect with slow and stun. He can shutdown ults. Overall again his kit has insane synergy. And that's without the Venom team-up.

4. Counters. Because his kit is so overtuned Spider-Man's counter are not very effective. And no a tank that Spider-Man can just ignore or drag of the map is not a counter. Namor is considered the most effective but his cooldowns are too long and Spider-Man can just bait out the shield and the squids, disengage and go in again after a few seconds.

5. Fun. I will be blunt. Fun is subjective. However this is not a single player game. As such if one person's fun is ruining the fun of at least six people we have a problem. That's why specific behaviors are not allowed in these games. Griefing is fun for the person doing it but it's not for the person on the receiving end.

6. Spider-Man is built like a character for a single player. Everything about him is made the player can go in and effectively be Spider-Man. That's great however not when it's at the cost of multiple other players.

7. Final thought. Overall the problem is not that Spider-Man can do these things. The real problem is that he can do ALL of them. He is built so well and his kit has such good synergy that it's just too strong. Spider-Man defenders can ignore all of this but in the end it changes nothing. Spider-Man is just too good as a character.

Feel free to have at it in the comments. I am out. At this point it's clear that a productive discussion on this topic is not possible. See you all at the party when the inevitable nerfbat hits Spider-Man in the face.

[doofus0510]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von X Mal:

Spidermans Uppercut needs a range nerf. And his Ult needs to be nerfed.

His uppercut is a 360 degree 5 meter sphere. So you can be above someone, not even have them your field of view on your screen, and they could be behind you too. And the uppercut still hits them.

Its not crazy in the very least to expect someone needing to be looking at you to hit you with their ability.

And his Ult is a 2800 charge. To put it in perspective most of the characters need at least 3800- 4000 before they can do their ultimate ability. But Spiders team melter Ult is almost half the cost and better then nearly all other Ults in the game.

The math ain't mathing for Spiderman. Unparalleled Speed and mobility shouldn't be coupled with high damage safety blanket abilities and attacks. Spiderman is unbalanced.

So its simple. Narrow down the radius of his uppercut to 70 degrees in front of him at a 5 meter distance. Which is still super gracious and easy to hit with.

And up his Ult Charge to 4000. Spiderman needs to have a way longer charge up for his Ult to balance him out. It can't be a...

...fast charge,
8 meter radius,
high damage output,
self bonus health granting,
slow effect causing,
and stunning everyone in the area for 2 seconds,
for a 2800 cost...

...Its all to much for the low cost.

Now would such changes break Spiderman? No. Because he will still be able to fly around a warp speeds. But these 2 things will balance him out because they will slow him down without slowing him down. Its called balance. THE WAY THANOS INTENDED.

But expect Netease to buff Spiderman in the next patch. Probably something stupid like increasing his HP by 75 or something.

i think the low ult cost is balanced by his low damage(for a dps) which causes him to make ult slower(personally i think 4000 might be too heavy as he can still be hit by cc in it, maybe like 3300-3500)

[WarGreymon]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von X Mal:

Spidermans Uppercut needs a range nerf. And his Ult needs to be nerfed.

His uppercut is a 360 degree 5 meter sphere. So you can be above someone, not even have them your field of view on your screen, and they could be behind you too. And the uppercut still hits them.

Its not crazy in the very least to expect someone needing to be looking at you to hit you with their ability.

And his Ult is a 2800 charge. To put it in perspective most of the characters need at least 3800- 4000 before they can do their ultimate ability. But Spiders team melter Ult is almost half the cost and better then nearly all other Ults in the game.

The math ain't mathing for Spiderman. Unparalleled Speed and mobility shouldn't be coupled with high damage safety blanket abilities and attacks. Spiderman is unbalanced.

So its simple. Narrow down the radius of his uppercut to 70 degrees in front of him at a 5 meter distance. Which is still super gracious and easy to hit with.

And up his Ult Charge to 4000. Spiderman needs to have a way longer charge up for his Ult to balance him out. It can't be a...

...fast charge,
8 meter radius,
high damage output,
self bonus health granting,
slow effect causing,
and stunning everyone in the area for 2 seconds,
for a 2800 cost...

...Its all to much for the low cost.

Now would such changes break Spiderman? No. Because he will still be able to fly around a warp speeds. But these 2 things will balance him out because they will slow him down without slowing him down. Its called balance. THE WAY THANOS INTENDED.

But expect Netease to buff Spiderman in the next patch. Probably something stupid like increasing his HP by 75 or something.

Overall his entire kit needs a rework and a lot of it needs to be toned down. As I have stated it's not a problem that he can do these things it's that he can do all of them. Most of his skills are very forgiven as mentioned with low cost and low risk.

I agree with you but I'd say the uppercut has to be a single target attack not an area of effect. And the it has to have a bigger cooldown or remove one of the charges. Most of the characters that have similar skills have to deal with timing them correctly or a small hit window that can miss and they don't have a second charge just in case.

As it stands the uppercut alone as a skill, as you mentioned, is a five meter area of effect sphere that can his targets behind him that lifts the target in the air and serves a soft crowd control that has a short cooldown and two charges it can also keep him in the air. It's too much. And that's just ONE of his skills.

[Toybox]

Spiderman is a menace in lower ranks due to him basically having no reliable counters. He can effectively shut down an entire team just by focusing the healers to the point where no one can get anything done.

The issue is that other than Namor, no one has any kind of effective counters to his kit. BP is more or less regulated to staying on the ground during their assault, allowing most characters a fighting chance. Iron Fist has to commit at least a little to secure a kill. Spiderman can just jump in, instantly delete someone and then be on the opposite side of the map in about 3 seconds. Even characters with auto-aim abilities like Wanda struggle to finish him off before he's out of their range.

Some effective counters to Spiderman may be something like giving Invisible Womans damage field a slowing effect, allowing her to sorta trap him in it if she can deploy it fast enough in response. Maybe give Luna a Frost Burst on a 12 sec cool down that does minimal damage but freezes anyone within 5 meters for 1.8 seconds.

This wouldn't really nerf Spiderman in any way, but it would even the playing field a bit because these abilities don't require precision aim and can be deployed instantly, just like his uppercut. Neither would kill Spiderman outright, but getting caught in it would allow people to have a fighting chance against him, making Spiderman Players be a bit more tactical in their approach, other than blindly diving in because they know no one can stop them.

[NOOBSURVIVES YT]

HE IS NOT REALLY A PROBLEM.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcxdomz2HvU

[WarGreymon]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von NOOBSURVIVES YT:

HE IS NOT REALLY A PROBLEM.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcxdomz2HvU

Sure that's why among everything mentioned he can target and his people behind obstacles as well. Come on.

[WarGreymon]

And now to add to the list of problems there are multiple people smurfing with Spider-Man.

[doofus0510]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von WarGreymon:

And now to add to the list of problems there are multiple people smurfing with Spider-Man.

that's just an issue with the game tbh not really a spiderman issue and most people who smurf with spidey use it to try him out on an off-account(mainly because they're in like diamond or smth and qp doesn't really help much when it comes to learning a hero especially one with pretty high minimum technical requirements such as spidey)

[You'reJustBad]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von WarGreymon:

And now to add to the list of problems there are multiple people smurfing with Spider-Man.

yeah... as ive said the only way to beat spider man is to not play against him... just sit in spawn and go next... if everyone did that no one would play spider man anymore because the spider man players get off on killing people for free and making you rage at how busted he is

so just don't engage... sit in spawn and have a chat or mess around

[WarGreymon]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von You'reJustBad:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von WarGreymon:

And now to add to the list of problems there are multiple people smurfing with Spider-Man.

yeah... as ive said the only way to beat spider man is to not play against him... just sit in spawn and go next... if everyone did that no one would play spider man anymore because the spider man players get off on killing people for free and making you rage at how busted he is

so just don't engage... sit in spawn and have a chat or mess around

Or the devs can... you know solve the smurfing issue and fix Spider-Man so he can't be so abusive.

[You'reJustBad]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von WarGreymon:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von You'reJustBad:

yeah... as ive said the only way to beat spider man is to not play against him... just sit in spawn and go next... if everyone did that no one would play spider man anymore because the spider man players get off on killing people for free and making you rage at how busted he is

so just don't engage... sit in spawn and have a chat or mess around

Or the devs can... you know solve the smurfing issue and fix Spider-Man so he can't be so abusive.

they wont, the smurfs and spider man mains are the ones dumping dollar on the multipal skins they keep releasing for the favorite..

same issue as OW where genji and tracer were the favorites...

no one was allowed to compete with the golden children, if they could hold their own they got immediately trash canned to protect the genji and tracer players egos

[WarGreymon]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von You'reJustBad:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von WarGreymon:

Or the devs can... you know solve the smurfing issue and fix Spider-Man so he can't be so abusive.

they wont, the smurfs and spider man mains are the ones dumping dollar on the multipal skins they keep releasing for the favorite..

same issue as OW where genji and tracer were the favorites...

no one was allowed to compete with the golden children, if they could hold their own they got immediately trash canned to protect the genji and tracer players egos

Smurfs do NOT spend money. They smurf for two reasons. First because that's the only way they can win or they think it's fun to get bug numbers and annoy people. Two because it's easy to make a throw away account if they get banned they will just make a new one. No one is going to spend money on a throwaway account.

As for Genji and that clown elf reject teracer yes they hurt Overwatch a lot but genji did get nerfed at least.

[You'reJustBad]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von WarGreymon:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von You'reJustBad:

they wont, the smurfs and spider man mains are the ones dumping dollar on the multipal skins they keep releasing for the favorite..

same issue as OW where genji and tracer were the favorites...

no one was allowed to compete with the golden children, if they could hold their own they got immediately trash canned to protect the genji and tracer players egos

Smurfs do NOT spend money. They smurf for two reasons. First because that's the only way they can win or they think it's fun to get bug numbers and annoy people. Two because it's easy to make a throw away account if they get banned they will just make a new one. No one is going to spend money on a throwaway account.

As for Genji and that clown elf reject teracer yes they hurt Overwatch a lot but genji did get nerfed at least.

must have been when i stopped playing

i stopped playing OW 2 weeks after they "Re released" it as OW2... when it became obvious blizzard had no intention of dealing with the problematic heros

[WarGreymon]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von You'reJustBad:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von WarGreymon:

Smurfs do NOT spend money. They smurf for two reasons. First because that's the only way they can win or they think it's fun to get bug numbers and annoy people. Two because it's easy to make a throw away account if they get banned they will just make a new one. No one is going to spend money on a throwaway account.

As for Genji and that clown elf reject teracer yes they hurt Overwatch a lot but genji did get nerfed at least.

must have been when i stopped playing

i stopped playing OW 2 weeks after they "Re released" it as OW2... when it became obvious blizzard had no intention of dealing with the problematic heros

They actually made the game worse with even more absurd characters. Back on topic. At this point Spider-Man is just toxic.

[You'reJustBad]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von WarGreymon:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von You'reJustBad:

must have been when i stopped playing

i stopped playing OW 2 weeks after they "Re released" it as OW2... when it became obvious blizzard had no intention of dealing with the problematic heros

They actually made the game worse with even more absurd characters. Back on topic. At this point Spider-Man is just toxic.

agree, which is why i don't bother with him

[WarGreymon]

Well say whatever you want but Spider-Man is still a problem that has not been fixed.