Faster Eternities

[DiMono]

Is there a way to get a faster Eternity than 10ms with 12DTP?

[arronax06]

Yep, no point in actively farming eternities after you get the related achievement :) . You'll passively farm them anyway once you get enough DTP (at DTP 41, you should have enough DTP to both farm eternities and do your AP runs simultaneously) :)

About EP gain, I noticed a hidden softcap that seems to be harsher and harsher the closer you get to the last achievement threshold. You should still progress a bit faster, but it's nowhere as fast as what one would expect if there were no hidden softcap. For information, you should be able to reach the last achievement at SN 157, with a ~2 days run, so you're getting closer :)

[DiMono]

I actually just updated my review based on the endgame. No game that gaslights the player is worth playing, and an idle game shouldn't require you to babysit it during the final month and a half. I'm literally only continuing because I like getting all the achievements in games. The more sensible thing to do would be to remove it from my library.

[[HTC] Getto]

don't forget that top - 2 dilation tree, offers DP gain based on eternities. this does work properly and is one of your DP boosters, which after several billion eternities is even stronger than bottom 3, dilation points multiplier by supernovas amount.

Closing in to 158 SN, but only recently got the final achievement of current patch.

[DiMono]

Originally posted by HTC Getto:

don't forget that top - 2 dilation tree, offers DP gain based on eternities. this does work properly and is one of your DP boosters, which after several billion eternities is even stronger than bottom 3, dilation points multiplier by supernovas amount.

I can calculate this, actually. I'm currently doing an AP/EP run, so bottom 3 and top 2 are both at level 1, and bottom 4 and top 4 are both at level 5 to support bottom 1 and bottom 2. I'm currently getting a 1.22e118 boost to DP production from bottom 3 with 156 supernovas, and a 1.24e29 boost from top 2 with 6.39e11 eternities (639 billion). So, from the outset, it's not looking good for eternities. But let's do some math.

Top 2 at level 1 gives a ^2.46 boost based on number of eternities, with each additional level adding 0.71 to that number. For level 5, we get 0.71 x 4 = 2.84 + 2.46 = ^5.3. (This is known to be the correct way to calculate this because when I didn't have any levels in bottom 4 it was ^2 + 0.25 x 4 = ^3 and that gave accurate results doing it this way.) So all I have to do is take the 5.3rd root of 1.22e118 to find out how many eternities it takes to match level 1 bottom 3 production with level 5 top 2 production.

To do that, we save 1/5.3 = 0.18867924528301886792452830188679 into our calculator's memory using MS, and then take 1.22e118 ^ [that number] using MR to get the number of eternities needed. That calculation yields:

19,074,152,523,060,437,627,542.01045955

As a verification step, we can then raise that number to the power of 5.3, which gives back 1.22e118 as expected.

That's 1.9e22 eternities required to meet the production of level 1 bottom 3 with level 5 top 2. Matching the production of level 5 bottom 3 would require an even more preposterously large number of eternities. So unless you know something I don't, I believe your claim that top 2 will outpace bottom 3 with just several billion eternities is incorrect.

[arronax06]

Originally posted by DiMono:

Originally posted by HTC Getto:

don't forget that top - 2 dilation tree, offers DP gain based on eternities. this does work properly and is one of your DP boosters, which after several billion eternities is even stronger than bottom 3, dilation points multiplier by supernovas amount.

I can calculate this, actually. I'm currently doing an AP/EP run, so bottom 3 and top 2 are both at level 1, and bottom 4 and top 4 are both at level 5 to support bottom 1 and bottom 2. I'm currently getting a 1.22e118 boost to DP production from bottom 3 with 156 supernovas, and a 1.24e29 boost from top 2 with 6.39e11 eternities (639 billion). So, from the outset, it's not looking good for eternities. But let's do some math.

Top 2 at level 1 gives a ^2.46 boost based on number of eternities, with each additional level adding 0.71 to that number. For level 5, we get 0.71 x 4 = 2.84 + 2.46 = ^5.3. (This is known to be the correct way to calculate this because when I didn't have any levels in bottom 4 it was ^2 + 0.25 x 4 = ^3 and that gave accurate results doing it this way.) So all I have to do is take the 5.3th root of 1.22e118 to find out how many eternities it takes to match level 1 bottom 3 production with level 5 top 2 production.

To do that, we save 1/53 = 0.18867924528301886792452830188679 into our calculator's memory using MS, and then take 1.22e118 ^ [that number] using MR to get the number of eternities needed. That calculation yields:

19,074,152,523,060,437,627,542.01045955

As a verification step, we can then raise that number to the power of 5.3, which gives back 1.22e118 as expected.

That's 1.9e22 eternities required to meet the production of level 1 bottom 3 with level 5 top 2. Matching the production of level 5 bottom 3 would require an even more preposterously large number of eternities. So unless you know something I don't, I believe your claim that top 2 will outpace bottom 3 with just several billion eternities is incorrect.

Ah, that's a common miscalculation :) : your bottom 3 would still be at 1, not at 0 (same way your top 2 is currently at 1, not 0 :) ), so what you want to compare is the upgrade from bottom 3 lvl1 to lvl2 (or 5), vs the upgrade from top 2 lvl1 to lvl2 (or 5), since the upgrades are not linear :)

[DiMono]

Originally posted by arronax06:

Ah, that's a common miscalculation :) : your bottom 3 would still be at 1, not at 0 (same way your top 2 is currently at 1, not 0 :) ), so what you want to compare is the upgrade from bottom 3 lvl1 to lvl2 (or 5), vs the upgrade from top 2 lvl1 to lvl2 (or 5) :)

You're right, I was taking the wrong approach. I'll do that math now. Each supernova is boosting by x5.71. To make sure my starting math is correct, 5.71^156 = 1.08e118, so it appears the real number is slightly higher than 5.71, but we'll work with 5.71 for now. That means my methodology for calculating bottom 3 is correct, even if there is a minor rounding error somewhere.

The increase to the multiplier is 0.71, so going from level 1 to level 2 changes the calculation to 6.42^156 = 9.45e125, for an exponent increase of almost 8.

For top 2, I'm currently getting 6.44e11 ^ 2.46 = 1.26e29 (it's gone up slightly during this conversation :D ). Increasing that to level 2 would change the calculation to 6.44e11 ^ 3.17 = 2.72e37, which is an increase of just over 8.

So you're right, going from level 1 to level 2 of each is better for top 2 while I have 6.44e11 eternities. Though, the obvious question is how does that pattern continue? Which distribution is optimal for each possible number of points? I'm now up to 6.45e11 eternities, so I'll use fresh calculations.

Top 2

Level 1: 6.45e11^2.46 = 1.26e29
Level 2: 6.45e11^3.17 = 2.73e37 - 2.17e8 increase
Level 3: 6.45e11^3.88 = 6.62e45 - 2.42e8 increase
Level 4: 6.45e11^4.59 = 1.61e54 - 2.43e8 increase
Level 5: 6.45e11^5.30 = 3.90e62 - 2.42e8 increase

Bottom 3

Level 1: 5.71^156 = 1.08e118
Level 2: 6.42^156 = 9.45e125 - 8.75e7 increase
Level 3: 7.13^156 = 1.21e133 - 1.28e7 increase
Level 4: 7.84^156 = 3.26e139 - 2.69e7 increase
Level 5: 8.55^156 = 2.44e145 - 7.48e6 increase

Top 2 gives an increase that escalates and then stays consistent, while bottom 3 gives an increase that generally decreases. That means after a certain point, it is always better to push top 2 fully and only then return to bottom 3.

Where's the flip?

To solve this we basically need to find the number of eternities E where E^0.71 > 8.75e7. That means taking 8.75e7 ^ (1/0.71) which equals 1.26e11.

If we want the number of eternities where level 5 top 2 > level 5 bottom 3, we do the same thing with different numbers: E^2.84 > 2.26e27 = 4.28e9.

That means, if you're working against supernova 156 (or thereabouts) and you have enough DTP to fill up bottom 3 or top 2 all the way (which you should by that point), then once you have 4.3 billion eternities you should switch back to favouring top 2 over bottom 3.

The part where DiMono feels sad

I've been running bottom 3 at level 5 the whole time, and adding top 2 secondarily. My last DP run had top at level 3 and bottom at level 5. For ease of calculation, I'll use the numbers above rather than working out my actual stats at the time.

Level 5 bottom 3 gave me 2.44e145, and level 3 top 2 gave me 6.62e45, for a total gain of approximately 1.62e191. If I'd instead put bottom 3 and level 3 and top 2 at level 5 I would have had 1.21e133 and 3.90e62 for a total of 4.72e195, meaning my max DP should be almost 30,000x higher than it is.

So it turns out I've been leaving DP on the table for quite some time. Go figure. At least I know now. Thank you both for the advice.

[Thanatos]

Since top-2's bonus is based on an exponential multiplier the eternities count for more and more over time. That's why there's a tipping point where top-2 becomes more valuable than bottom-3, and why bottom-3 will never be able to catch up since it's a static multiplier based on nova count.

[Kyouko Tsukino]

And that's why I was insisting on "farm eternities." It makes a difference, it was comparatively easy to get each DTP up to 45, it just took time farming APs and Eternities.

I only used B-3 for a while after DTP 40, but then noticed the difference eternities were making after I farmed APs and Eternities several times. The DP gain from Eternities keeps on getting stronger while the SN boost doesn't. At 2.5e12 Eternities, that top upgrade is looking nicer and nicer, too bad the eternity gain has become quite the grind. AP is still the king of DP income, though. Supernovas are... Okay. May get SN 157 at some point. Or not.

I'm currently aiming for DTP 45 just so I can max out DP from supernovas, then I'll start working on probably Top-1 or Bottom 1. Other people would go "omg but no achievements!" but to me achievements are, also, car spoilers, unless they give a good in-game reward (which in this game can be said about a very, very small handful of achievements.)

[DiMono]

I'm up to 9.16e11 eternities and closing in on 430k AP, at which point I'll reset into a DP build to get e1000 DP and DTP 44. I entered my current run at about 400k AP, figuring +30k (which translates to about +e25 DP production if the game's not lying about that too) is a good goal to shoot for from here on out. I'm only still here for the last achievements - once I get them, I'm burying this game in my library and never playing it again.

Though it is mildly gratifying to be in the top 1600 on all three leaderboards (1410 general, 1574 infinite, 1395 eternate).

[arronax06]

Originally posted by Kyouko Tsukino:

And that's why I was insisting on "farm eternities." It makes a difference, it was comparatively easy to get each DTP up to 45, it just took time farming APs and Eternities.

It's true, but knowing when to do it and how to do it is the most important, because some people read that as "farm eternities actively instead of running an AP or SN build". Once you reach the eternities related achievement, there is no reason to actively farm eternities until you need them again, and at the point you need them (at DTP 41), you can farm them passively, at the same time as APs or SNs, by adding your extra DTP in the related dilation upgrade, without sacrificing your AP farming or your SN run :)

[Thanatos]

Originally posted by DiMono:

Though it is mildly gratifying to be in the top 1600 on all three leaderboards (1410 general, 1574 infinite, 1395 eternate).

The leaderboards are complete junk. There's hundreds of people who have literally impossible eternity counts.

[arronax06]

Originally posted by Thanatos:

Originally posted by DiMono:

Though it is mildly gratifying to be in the top 1600 on all three leaderboards (1410 general, 1574 infinite, 1395 eternate).

The leaderboards are complete junk. There's hundreds of people who have literally impossible eternity counts.

If you ignore the first 200, the other scores should be legitimate :)

[DiMono]

Originally posted by Thanatos:

Originally posted by DiMono:

Though it is mildly gratifying to be in the top 1600 on all three leaderboards (1410 general, 1574 infinite, 1395 eternate).

The leaderboards are complete junk. There's hundreds of people who have literally impossible eternity counts.

Apparently the framerate used to be uncapped, so people got eternities faster than 10ms. Being capped at 60fps, and eternities now being measured in ms rather than seconds when they're very fast, I think the new fastest possible is 17ms, which makes our 10ms fastest scores the new impossible run.

[Imagine Wagons]

Fiddling with a window size might help you a bit. I went from 0.03s on faster eternity to 0.01. Minimalizing/maximalizing should be enough.

[DiMono]

Gave it a shot, didn't do anything for me. 10ms seems to be the limit. Also, hit 1e1000 DP and got my next DTP. Back to grinding Eternities and AP.