lumbus님이 먼저 게시:

FaceRig is also pay once and keep it forever. Animaze is a different software. That was the point I was trying to make. That different software should not be compared in the sense of: "I already paid for it as I own a similar software by the same vendor and now it is a subscription."
So perhaps the better comparison is to compare Photoshop 7 (very old) and the current Photoshop subscription model. I assume that the software also evolved a lot and is fundamentally a different one with more / improved features, a new name and business model. But no one makes it impossible to use the old bought software.

So here's the point I want to get at.

What does Animaze do that other products don't (both FaceRig and free alternatives) to justify the whole subscription service?

If all of these pieces of software have similar quality tracking and smoothness, why would I pay per-month for one software when I can use something that's a one-time purchase or something else that's entirely free?

If Animaze doesn't do anything super amazing that everything else doesn't, then there's absolutely no reason to be roped into a subscription software.

It's the same reason I would pick GIMP 2 over Photoshop if I was majorly into image editing and manipulation.

It's the same reason I use OpenOffice instead of buying Microsoft Office.

So unless Animaze does something far more superior than any other virtual webcam software...I'm not buying into it. I'll either stick with FaceRig or see if my avatar artist will update its version so I can use it with another software...and this is coming from someone who backed FaceRig on Kickstarter.

Zoen님이 먼저 게시:

lumbus님이 먼저 게시:

FaceRig is also pay once and keep it forever. Animaze is a different software. That was the point I was trying to make. That different software should not be compared in the sense of: "I already paid for it as I own a similar software by the same vendor and now it is a subscription."
So perhaps the better comparison is to compare Photoshop 7 (very old) and the current Photoshop subscription model. I assume that the software also evolved a lot and is fundamentally a different one with more / improved features, a new name and business model. But no one makes it impossible to use the old bought software.

So here's the point I want to get at.

What does Animaze do that other products don't (both FaceRig and free alternatives) to justify the whole subscription service?

If all of these pieces of software have similar quality tracking and smoothness, why would I pay per-month for one software when I can use something that's a one-time purchase or something else that's entirely free?

If Animaze doesn't do anything super amazing that everything else doesn't, then there's absolutely no reason to be roped into a subscription software.

It's the same reason I would pick GIMP 2 over Photoshop if I was majorly into image editing and manipulation.

It's the same reason I use OpenOffice instead of buying Microsoft Office.

So unless Animaze does something far more superior than any other virtual webcam software...I'm not buying into it. I'll either stick with FaceRig or see if my avatar artist will update its version so I can use it with another software...and this is coming from someone who backed FaceRig on Kickstarter.

Same reason I use blender instead of maya and Zbrush. As it lets me make what I normally would need both these expensive programs to do.

Jade (The cool one)님이 먼저 게시:

Natural Harmonia님이 먼저 게시:

20 a month is also fairly steep if one is unsure how much use the software will see month per month, but still may need some of the options beyond what the free/demo may offer.

it's 20 a year, not a month. Still more than I'm willing to pay for what amounts to a novelty

Oop, I misread that one bit about the price (I apologize, I have very bad eyesight) .

But EXACTLY, you're right. And my one point still stands on the whole subscription service thing. I'll elaborate cause I see there's been a lot of pages added to this topic, maybe it'll help to the discussion-

Though the main point of what I was mostly trying to say is just that... You with this kind of model you never own the product! You just pay out and pay out until they decide to eventually faze the program out for the next one or, worse case scenario, discontinue it and kill off the servers when you're dealing with a subscription service with NO offer of lifetime program purchase. This isn't a jab at these makers, this is about this type of payment system as a whole.

I'm gonna use Adobe as an example for now:

Its like Photoshop's new cloud subscription service. I bought a copy of Photoshop ages ago- around the CS6 set for Photoshop and Illustrator as it is a MAJOR part of my job usage... and now they wanna say I can't even use it anymore because "WE'VE MOVED TO SUBSCRIPTION CLOUDS~! GIVE US MONEY TO CONTINUE!". Excuse me, what? I bought these programs! It actually comes up with a thing that tries to make sure you cannot use the programs!

Yeah yeah, its a smaller per-month cost sure to move to the subscription at the start, making it look friendly, but month after month after month... it adds up. And you never on it. You never have a RIGHT to own ANY of it. Its not an option. And that is not good. Its not good at all.

And I say this as someone who doesn't hate Adobe's software at all, I think they've got powerful software, some thats very essential in my field of work. But I absolutely can't stand the way they do business these days. It was a real slap in the face to have them actually try to disable my legit copy because its NOT PART OF THEIR NEW CLOUD SOFTWARE PACKAGE and "out of date" because its the CS6 set and not the new thing. I did manage to finagle the disabler stopping the bootup on the program because I'm tech savvy, but I feel sorry if anyone else in that case didn't know how! I never should have to do that with something I bought and own! No one should have to do that with something they own.

It'd be like your Cellphone brand just cutting itself off because its not the BRAND NEW iPhone or Android model or whatnot, just being completely unuseable until you shell out for a new one. That would suck.

That's the possibility of things that go with subscription based services, they have the right to discontinue the service for whatever reason, and possibly have you have to up your price to continue usage.

Also it really does stink having to shell out the bigbux version if you're using it to make revenue through streaming services. It doesn't really say if you have to shell out that 100 USD upfront or not, does it? Could be the hundred or the 20 upfront, THEN you get the service. Its not very clear about that.

Zoen님이 먼저 게시:

lumbus님이 먼저 게시:

FaceRig is also pay once and keep it forever. Animaze is a different software. That was the point I was trying to make. That different software should not be compared in the sense of: "I already paid for it as I own a similar software by the same vendor and now it is a subscription."
So perhaps the better comparison is to compare Photoshop 7 (very old) and the current Photoshop subscription model. I assume that the software also evolved a lot and is fundamentally a different one with more / improved features, a new name and business model. But no one makes it impossible to use the old bought software.

So here's the point I want to get at.

What does Animaze do that other products don't (both FaceRig and free alternatives) to justify the whole subscription service?

If all of these pieces of software have similar quality tracking and smoothness, why would I pay per-month for one software when I can use something that's a one-time purchase or something else that's entirely free?

If Animaze doesn't do anything super amazing that everything else doesn't, then there's absolutely no reason to be roped into a subscription software.

It's the same reason I would pick GIMP 2 over Photoshop if I was majorly into image editing and manipulation.

It's the same reason I use OpenOffice instead of buying Microsoft Office.

So unless Animaze does something far more superior than any other virtual webcam software...I'm not buying into it. I'll either stick with FaceRig or see if my avatar artist will update its version so I can use it with another software...and this is coming from someone who backed FaceRig on Kickstarter.

I totally agree. And is therefore the free model not great? For me it means: I do not have to buy the software, I get it for free. I never used it for more than 90 minutes in the past and if so, a fast restart fixes the limitation as explained by the dev. The new animaze just works better than FaceRig, but for me as a casual user it does not matter much. Surely, I will stay to the free model or use FaceRig or would use other software.

My point is: The devs can do what they want with their new product. The old one is not affected, in fact they support it until the end of 2021, which is very nice. After that new OS/new hardware might cause problems, but perhaps it will run just fine in 10 years from now. Who knows?

So I have no beef: As as a consumer I would not have bought a successor either way. And now I get it for free and if at some point I love it more than free / old alternatives, I can decide to pay for it. Or not.
It is not like there is no alternative and they force me into a subscription like some people imply that they bought FaceRig an now they have to buy a subscription to continue to use it. That is just not true. Therefore my comparision.

I like how roughly 90% of the comments on Animaze is talking about how much of a bad idea the subscription model is. And Animaze devs just do not care at all.

Sub models are for things you can't reasonably own, like what we do with Netflix or Amazon Prime. Stuff like Adobe and Microsoft Office are already terrible on subscription models, and WoW only gets away with it because the only people who play it are deluded into thinking it's okay at this point.

I for one will be telling as many people as I can to AVOID Animaze at all costs until they remove the subscription model. Facerig works fairy well still, is a fixed cost, yadda yadda.

Mr Foxxy님이 먼저 게시:

I like how roughly 90% of the comments on Animaze is talking about how much of a bad idea the subscription model is. And Animaze devs just do not care at all.

Sub models are for things you can't reasonably own, like what we do with Netflix or Amazon Prime. Stuff like Adobe and Microsoft Office are already terrible on subscription models, and WoW only gets away with it because the only people who play it are deluded into thinking it's okay at this point.

I for one will be telling as many people as I can to AVOID Animaze at all costs until they remove the subscription model. Facerig works fairy well still, is a fixed cost, yadda yadda.

Couldn't agree more... With everything you say! At least both photoshop and office has countless opensourced competitors that allows anyone to do just as great work or better for little to nothing or even donations... Like Blender, Google docs, openoffice...

Otherwise facerig right now is the only proper option for us 3D artists for this use and they are screwing us over... i may as well just use VRchat to have fun in my avatars and models and forget this even exists... all of my friends hate it. One was even in beta and talked about it directly to the devs but they did not want to listen. Kept repeating their "youtuber/streamer" excuses... many of their users dont even use this to stream. But rather to have fun with friends in videochats.

Its nothing about not being able to afford it. We happily pay. We just prefer to pay once for all and keep the tool. I even bought paint. net rather than their free version for supporting them. Not this way these guys are forcing us with animaze. All my friends would happily pay for this. But this subscription model + the limitations on both the free and payed animaze is too much. I just hate freemium. Its something everyone makes fun of.

Also if everyone keeps going with the subscription model nobody can get anything anymore... i already have lots of subscriptions to pay. The difference as stated above is that those things subscription makes sense... as those other things are services i can't own myself in any way. Like TV streaming services, music, audio books. Services i also actually use several times a day on a daily basis. Despite that being cheaper than animaze seperately. I've never gotten into a monthly subscription for a program, tool or game otherwise... Because having several subscriptions add up. And adding a novelty tool that i at most would use a few times a month in silly video calls is nothing near acceptable to be there... and the limitations of the freemium version is just not enough and far from acceptable either. Since there is no option that works for me it means you have pretty much alienated me as a costumer and dont want me or many others like us to enjoy your software anymore...

lumbus님이 먼저 게시:

Zoen님이 먼저 게시:

So here's the point I want to get at.

What does Animaze do that other products don't (both FaceRig and free alternatives) to justify the whole subscription service?

If all of these pieces of software have similar quality tracking and smoothness, why would I pay per-month for one software when I can use something that's a one-time purchase or something else that's entirely free?

If Animaze doesn't do anything super amazing that everything else doesn't, then there's absolutely no reason to be roped into a subscription software.

It's the same reason I would pick GIMP 2 over Photoshop if I was majorly into image editing and manipulation.

It's the same reason I use OpenOffice instead of buying Microsoft Office.

So unless Animaze does something far more superior than any other virtual webcam software...I'm not buying into it. I'll either stick with FaceRig or see if my avatar artist will update its version so I can use it with another software...and this is coming from someone who backed FaceRig on Kickstarter.

I totally agree. And is therefore the free model not great? For me it means: I do not have to buy the software, I get it for free. I never used it for more than 90 minutes in the past and if so, a fast restart fixes the limitation as explained by the dev. The new animaze just works better than FaceRig, but for me as a casual user it does not matter much. Surely, I will stay to the free model or use FaceRig or would use other software.

My point is: The devs can do what they want with their new product. The old one is not affected, in fact they support it until the end of 2021, which is very nice. After that new OS/new hardware might cause problems, but perhaps it will run just fine in 10 years from now. Who knows?

So I have no beef: As as a consumer I would not have bought a successor either way. And now I get it for free and if at some point I love it more than free / old alternatives, I can decide to pay for it. Or not.
It is not like there is no alternative and they force me into a subscription like some people imply that they bought FaceRig an now they have to buy a subscription to continue to use it. That is just not true. Therefore my comparision.

I think the biggest issue is that the Dev plans to remove FaceRig and DLC from steam when Animaze is released. Its basically the same product, as we can only base what's "better" on what they're telling us, not on our experience with the beta.

StaceySlays님이 먼저 게시:

lumbus님이 먼저 게시:

I totally agree. And is therefore the free model not great? For me it means: I do not have to buy the software, I get it for free. I never used it for more than 90 minutes in the past and if so, a fast restart fixes the limitation as explained by the dev. The new animaze just works better than FaceRig, but for me as a casual user it does not matter much. Surely, I will stay to the free model or use FaceRig or would use other software.

My point is: The devs can do what they want with their new product. The old one is not affected, in fact they support it until the end of 2021, which is very nice. After that new OS/new hardware might cause problems, but perhaps it will run just fine in 10 years from now. Who knows?

So I have no beef: As as a consumer I would not have bought a successor either way. And now I get it for free and if at some point I love it more than free / old alternatives, I can decide to pay for it. Or not.
It is not like there is no alternative and they force me into a subscription like some people imply that they bought FaceRig an now they have to buy a subscription to continue to use it. That is just not true. Therefore my comparision.

I think the biggest issue is that the Dev plans to remove FaceRig and DLC from steam when Animaze is released. Its basically the same product, as we can only base what's "better" on what they're telling us, not on our experience with the beta.

Not just that but as said many times before... the free model is not enough... we want to pay once for a full product with no stupid limitations. And its stil not free... we pay with limitations that are artificially put there to make us into subscription model. Not just that, but me as a 3D artist have to pay extra to use my own models and creations even in the damn "free" version. If so then i rather pay once. For a full product. Or i just wont use it at all...

lumbus님이 먼저 게시:

I totally agree. And is therefore the free model not great? For me it means: I do not have to buy the software, I get it for free. I never used it for more than 90 minutes in the past and if so, a fast restart fixes the limitation as explained by the dev. The new animaze just works better than FaceRig, but for me as a casual user it does not matter much. Surely, I will stay to the free model or use FaceRig or would use other software.

My point is: The devs can do what they want with their new product. The old one is not affected, in fact they support it until the end of 2021, which is very nice. After that new OS/new hardware might cause problems, but perhaps it will run just fine in 10 years from now. Who knows?

So I have no beef: As as a consumer I would not have bought a successor either way. And now I get it for free and if at some point I love it more than free / old alternatives, I can decide to pay for it. Or not.
It is not like there is no alternative and they force me into a subscription like some people imply that they bought FaceRig an now they have to buy a subscription to continue to use it. That is just not true. Therefore my comparision.

And there's another part of the issue.

I myself only use FaceRig during streams, meaning if I get the free version of Animaze, I'd have to constantly reboot the software every 90 minutes to keep using it, which would (A) spam anyone on my friends list every 90 minutes that I'm "now playing Animaze" even though it's not a game, and (B) completely override the status of the current game I'm playing. Therefore, if I want to keep my actual status of playing a game instead of Animaze, I'd also have to relaunch my game every time I relaunch Animaze to get around the stupid 90 minute session timer.

A session timer shouldn't be locked behind a subscription. I'm perfectly fine with a subscription offering extra perks that aren't offered to the free version (ie Props, extra filters, bonus animations), but anything else is a hard pass for me.

StaceySlays님이 먼저 게시:

I think the biggest issue is that the Dev plans to remove FaceRig and DLC from steam when Animaze is released. Its basically the same product, as we can only base what's "better" on what they're telling us, not on our experience with the beta.

Oh yes, good point! I guess this is because they do not want to support the old software anymore. But it would be nice to have the choice to buy and keep an old software that still works or pay a subscription for a new one that gets new features. So you would have a choice...

I also like how they're comparing the $20 plan to Photoshop, Zoom and Streamlabs Prime on their website to make it sound like an extra good deal, when their $100 plan would be closer pricing wise to those products.
(because they sure as hell aren't comparable features and services wise)

From the Animaze site:

13% the cost of a Streamlabs annual subscription ($149/year vs. $19.99/year)
13% the cost of a Zoom annual subscription ($149/year vs. $19.99/year)
8% of a Photoshop-only annual subscription ($239.88/year vs. $19.99/year)


Streamlabs OBS free version for example has ZERO restrictions. All it lacks is the ability to stream to multiple platforms. Getting their Prime services actually gives you extras. Extras that are designed around boosting income. e.g adding things to help sell merchandise.
And is aimed at those who have a large audience and are making the big bucks already.

I use the free Streamalabs OBS all the time, have hit no paywalls and the company has asked for Zero dollars from me. Heck they don't watermark my videos or timelock the software for free users.

Photoshop, well most who actually pay for that are using it commercially, like professional graphic designers etc.
Every day casuals generally tend to use illegal cracked versions of the software.

So much spin to everything they're saying and doing. When I see companies doing things like that, (as in bullsh*t spin doctoring, and not being direct and honest) it just raises a tonne of flags for me.

Holotech seems to think we're all big time Youtube streamers making bank. But the fact they're comparing Facerig..... I mean Animaze to commercial products, but still using only their $20plan shows they know they're not.

$100 license is NOT 8% of Photoshop. It's not 13% of Streamlabs. And aside from being webcam related, have no idea how it is even comparable to Zoom.

Hell, I couldn't compare Facerig to any of those services myself actually.

But I notice they don't bother anywhere to compare it to products actually similar to Facerig, like F_Clone or ManyCam

Which have either one off payments, or whose subscriptions add things like 'multiple seats' e.g being able to use the software on more than one device.

ManyCam for example has subscriptions, or for a little bit more you have a 'Life Time' license option.

Soon becomes pretty apparent why they are not comparing themselves to products that are actually similar to Facerig/Animaze.

Again, it just comes off as more PR Guy BS spin.

Also, who here aside from maybe Pro Streamers with Streamlabs uses any of those subscription services they're comparing too?

Rabid Raccoon님이 먼저 게시:

Photoshop, well most who actually pay for that are using it commercially, like professional graphic designers etc.
Every day casuals generally tend to use illegal cracked versions of the software.

Please dont assume everyone who dont like photoshops plan do that... everyone i know use other legit programs instead.. there are heck ton of alternatives that even are better depending on what you do. Most which either are donation funded opensourced or one time payment programs you just have to buy again when a better itteration is released. Which goes to my point... there are artists who hate subscription models and just use alternatives that arent as greedy.

Difference is that facerig is first off... not comparable to either of those softwares in what it does. And that trying to justify subscription model by excuses such as (every other program does it) is far from a good excuse and just shows that they are desperate for money creating annoyances and stupid problems making it not worth it for most in the end... holotech litterally rather want majority of their community to either avoid them entirely or use their free version.

Which begs the question? Do they even heckin want our freekin money? Seems they only want to appeal to rich youtubers and take their cash while alienating a lot of potential costumers who would buy otherwise. Almost litterally telling them to frell off with their money. They clearly not want mine...

I was interested in getting the new Animaze product, until I saw it was subscription, that alone made me decide that I won't ever use it unless you change away from subscription or offer a 1 time purchase option

panther_amitobe님이 먼저 게시:

I was interested in getting the new Animaze product, until I saw it was subscription, that alone made me decide that I won't ever use it unless you change away from subscription or offer a 1 time purchase option

Yeah.. It seems holotech dont want our money... They just want the money of spoiled youtubers... They are turning/scaring away lots of potential costumers. I wonder how much they may just loose with this...

As ive tried to say before... The commercial edition should be monthly subscription for those who earn more than 500€ a month streaming. Then a one time payment should be offered non commercial use such as hobby streamers or people who just want to use it in video chats... I think this way everyone gets what they want. Streamers who earn 500€ a month would surely not mind the subscription. I know I wouldnt if this program was actually used to make me earn that amount of money.

But it earns me none... So subscription just wont do it for me personally... I neither want the stupid artificial limitations put into the "freemium" version... I want to buy a program and get over with it like with facerig and possibly buy the occasional DLC to support instead alongside being able to freely use my own models...