How Similar is this to Ender Lilies?

[Jackson]

Hello,

I am interested in this franchise, as I enjoy Metroidvanias in general. People are very enthusiastic for the series, but the first game, did not land for me. I'm curious if anyone could tell me if some of the combat design has been balanced better or if it's very similar to Ender Lilies, in which this likely won't be a day one purchase for me.

Things I specifically did not like was how generally tanky the enemies felt. I thought the life pools felt bloated to compensate for the stagger mechanic. It made it exciting to knock enemies from ledges as it dealt a lot of damage, but I found with the constantly respawning enemies, the combat felt very repetitive. I also struggled with the game's signposting, or put another way, trying to figure out where to go next. Something about the environments blended switches into the walls that made it really hard for me to figure out where to go sporadically through the adventure.

Any insight is appreciated!

[Sergalius]

Basically you dont like Metroidvanias xD

[antoninartaud]

magnolia has huge upgrade about mapping but not knowing where to go thing is a part of metroidvanias.

[Mr.I]

Sometimes a video game is not just a stupid video game. Video game is just a type of media that allows creators to express themselves freely. Video games are not about fighting and killing things. The same concept applies to different genres, a video game genre is only a form of media that is chosen by the developers to express themselves.

A video game that only tries to be a stupid video game is very unlikely to make its players emotionally invested in the game. Without a motivation and a reason to fight, fighting and killing will eventual become meaningless and boring. E-sports are the exception rather than the rule, because the purpose of their existence is to be virtual arenas and nothing more.

Originally posted by Jackson:

People are very enthusiastic for the series, but the first game, did not land for me.

Because they're the type of games that are capable of making players emotionally invested in them. They're more of a form of art rather than simple video games. The difference between this kind of games and "stupid video games" that only allows you to kill things is as distinct as the difference between Mona Lisa and kid's doodles.

[tewi]

Originally posted by Jackson:

Hello,

I am interested in this franchise, as I enjoy Metroidvanias in general. People are very enthusiastic for the series, but the first game, did not land for me. I'm curious if anyone could tell me if some of the combat design has been balanced better or if it's very similar to Ender Lilies, in which this likely won't be a day one purchase for me.

Things I specifically did not like was how generally tanky the enemies felt. I thought the life pools felt bloated to compensate for the stagger mechanic. It made it exciting to knock enemies from ledges as it dealt a lot of damage, but I found with the constantly respawning enemies, the combat felt very repetitive. I also struggled with the game's signposting, or put another way, trying to figure out where to go next. Something about the environments blended switches into the walls that made it really hard for me to figure out where to go sporadically through the adventure.

Any insight is appreciated!

the 2nd game will likely improve on some of the aspects you didn't like, if for no other reason than the developer will have a lot more experience this time around. for example, the first thing i noticed playing the early access was that the weightiness and sound design of attacks was much improved, which was my biggest criticism of the first game, where everything was just a series of uneventful whoosh noises. map design and clarity was also better overall

but it's also possible it's just not the game for you. ender lilies wasn't my favorite in anything really. not my favorite in combat, platforming, exploration, map design, boss fights... but it did everything above average, gave a consistent experience and i adored the overall dark, gloomy atmosphere of the game. i also like lolis, so there's that

[Jackson]

Originally posted by tewi:

Originally posted by Jackson:

Hello,

I am interested in this franchise, as I enjoy Metroidvanias in general. People are very enthusiastic for the series, but the first game, did not land for me. I'm curious if anyone could tell me if some of the combat design has been balanced better or if it's very similar to Ender Lilies, in which this likely won't be a day one purchase for me.

Things I specifically did not like was how generally tanky the enemies felt. I thought the life pools felt bloated to compensate for the stagger mechanic. It made it exciting to knock enemies from ledges as it dealt a lot of damage, but I found with the constantly respawning enemies, the combat felt very repetitive. I also struggled with the game's signposting, or put another way, trying to figure out where to go next. Something about the environments blended switches into the walls that made it really hard for me to figure out where to go sporadically through the adventure.

Any insight is appreciated!

the 2nd game will likely improve on some of the aspects you didn't like, if for no other reason than the developer will have a lot more experience this time around. for example, the first thing i noticed playing the early access was that the weightiness and sound design of attacks was much improved, which was my biggest criticism of the first game, where everything was just a series of uneventful whoosh noises. map design and clarity was also better overall

but it's also possible it's just not the game for you. ender lilies wasn't my favorite in anything really. not my favorite in combat, platforming, exploration, map design, boss fights... but it did everything above average, gave a consistent experience and i adored the overall dark, gloomy atmosphere of the game. i also like lolis, so there's that

Thank you for directly replying to what I'm asking. It sounds like it may not just be for me then based on what you're saying, as well as how others are responding, as I'm not interested in the theme. I do recognize, games can get incredibly high reviews based on their story, or art which isn't a factor I look for, as I'm mostly interested in fun moment-to-moment gameplay.

[Nightmarian]

Originally posted by Jackson:

Originally posted by tewi:

the 2nd game will likely improve on some of the aspects you didn't like, if for no other reason than the developer will have a lot more experience this time around. for example, the first thing i noticed playing the early access was that the weightiness and sound design of attacks was much improved, which was my biggest criticism of the first game, where everything was just a series of uneventful whoosh noises. map design and clarity was also better overall

but it's also possible it's just not the game for you. ender lilies wasn't my favorite in anything really. not my favorite in combat, platforming, exploration, map design, boss fights... but it did everything above average, gave a consistent experience and i adored the overall dark, gloomy atmosphere of the game. i also like lolis, so there's that

Thank you for directly replying to what I'm asking. It sounds like it may not just be for me then based on what you're saying, as well as how others are responding, as I'm not interested in the theme. I do recognize, games can get incredibly high reviews based on their story, or art which isn't a factor I look for, as I'm mostly interested in fun moment-to-moment gameplay.

You answered your own question, lol. The game is literally a 1:1 sequel. If you didn't like the first, there is no way you'll like the second. And despite what his opinion suggests, he literally said it does all those things above average. How the heck is doing EVERYTHING above average not worthy of it being a great?

It may not be the best at anything but being the "best" implies there is only one game that can fit that throne among literally hundreds of thousands and it's all opinion anyway.

Ender Lilies' only sin for me was being too easy for a metrovania, but it's easily one of the best ones and especially for a first attempt.

The "fun moment to moment" gameplay is going to be subjective. For a lot of fans of the series, it's there.

You just don't like metrovanias it seems. I'm reaaaaaaalyy curious to know what you consider to be games with "fun moment to moment gameplay" as your top games are games with some of the most repetitive gameplay loops in existence.

Originally posted by Sergalius:

Basically you dont like Metroidvanias xD

Shoulda been /thread.

[Jackson]

I do enjoy Metroidvanias but not every game in a genre is equal for enjoyment. As a recent example, I liked Blade Chimera, but the developer's other Metroidvanias didn't land for me. That said, it does sound like this won't be for me, given I didn't enjoy the prior game. I do appreciate the replies. I will look toward other games in the future.

[tewi]

Originally posted by Nightmarian:

Originally posted by Jackson:

Thank you for directly replying to what I'm asking. It sounds like it may not just be for me then based on what you're saying, as well as how others are responding, as I'm not interested in the theme. I do recognize, games can get incredibly high reviews based on their story, or art which isn't a factor I look for, as I'm mostly interested in fun moment-to-moment gameplay.

You answered your own question, lol. The game is literally a 1:1 sequel. If you didn't like the first, there is no way you'll like the second. And despite what his opinion suggests, he literally said it does all those things above average. How the heck is doing EVERYTHING above average not worthy of it being a great?

It may not be the best at anything but being the "best" implies there is only one game that can fit that throne among literally hundreds of thousands and it's all opinion anyway.

Ender Lilies' only sin for me was being too easy for a metrovania, but it's easily one of the best ones and especially for a first attempt.

The "fun moment to moment" gameplay is going to be subjective. For a lot of fans of the series, it's there.

You just don't like metrovanias it seems. I'm reaaaaaaalyy curious to know what you consider to be games with "fun moment to moment gameplay" as your top games are games with some of the most repetitive gameplay loops in existence.

Originally posted by Sergalius:

Basically you dont like Metroidvanias xD

Shoulda been /thread.

i should probably have emphasized that more but yeah, doing everything above average is very rare in the saturated metroidvania market. ender lilies is a top 5 mv for me

[Jackson]

It's all good, I really enjoyed The Last Faith which is widely criticized for not doing anything unique, but I thought it did everything it set out to do well, and I enjoyed the combat, so I really enjoyed my time with it. I play a lot of indie games in general, so I definitely know how detracting their specific negatives can be to the experience as a whole.

[Kan3da.]

Originally posted by Mr.I:

Sometimes a video game is not just a stupid video game. Video game is just a type of media that allows creators to express themselves freely. Video games are not about fighting and killing things. The same concept applies to different genres, a video game genre is only a form of media that is chosen by the developers to express themselves.

A video game that only tries to be a stupid video game is very unlikely to make its players emotionally invested in the game. Without a motivation and a reason to fight, fighting and killing will eventual become meaningless and boring. E-sports are the exception rather than the rule, because the purpose of their existence is to be virtual arenas and nothing more.

Originally posted by Jackson:

People are very enthusiastic for the series, but the first game, did not land for me.

Because they're the type of games that are capable of making players emotionally invested in them. They're more of a form of art rather than simple video games. The difference between this kind of games and "stupid video games" that only allows you to kill things is as distinct as the difference between Mona Lisa and kid's doodles.

Complete nonsense

[nattawitta]

This is from my early access experience. So, I don't know if the final release will have any change. I think that battle system is a lot better and easier than Ender Lilies. The main different is that your summoning is faster and more viable to take down your enemies. There is also no limit to summon them and now you don't take any damage from touching your enemy. Boss is still a bit tanky but you can combine attack and make it stagger a lot easier.

I'm not sure what you mean about "constantly re-spawning enemies" The enemies will only re-spawn when you die or rest at save point. Many Metroidvania games actually re-spawn enemies when you're changing zone. This makes it a lot easier to explore. What Metroidvania game you've played that doesn't constantly re-spawn the enemies?

Unless you skip all the conversation, this game does tell you where you should go next but it doesn't have any sign on mini-map to directly point you where to go. But from the early access, it's quite straight forward. You see a locked door. You defeat the boss and receive a key then of course you should know that it's a key for that door. I believe that player who decide to play Metroidvania game should love exploration. This game has more QoL than many other Metroidvania game. You can fast travel to any save point from anywhere. Zone in the map will change color if you've already founded all items and secrets. This is a very good indication of where you should go. Enemies who stagger and fall from high place will die. You don't even need to follow them down to kill them. If you seriously have problem with exploration in this game then Metroidvania may not suit your taste.

[Jackson]

Originally posted by nattawitta:

This is from my early access experience. So, I don't know if the final release will have any change. I think that battle system is a lot better and easier than Ender Lilies. The main different is that your summoning is faster and more viable to take down your enemies. There is also no limit to summon them and now you don't take any damage from touching your enemy. Boss is still a bit tanky but you can combine attack and make it stagger a lot easier.

I'm not sure what you mean about "constantly re-spawning enemies" The enemies will only re-spawn when you die or rest at save point. Many Metroidvania games actually re-spawn enemies when you're changing zone. This makes it a lot easier to explore. What Metroidvania game you've played that doesn't constantly re-spawn the enemies?

Unless you skip all the conversation, this game does tell you where you should go next but it doesn't have any sign on mini-map to directly point you where to go. But from the early access, it's quite straight forward. You see a locked door. You defeat the boss and receive a key then of course you should know that it's a key for that door. I believe that player who decide to play Metroidvania game should love exploration. This game has more QoL than many other Metroidvania game. You can fast travel to any save point from anywhere. Zone in the map will change color if you've already founded all items and secrets. This is a very good indication of where you should go. Enemies who stagger and fall from high place will die. You don't even need to follow them down to kill them. If you seriously have problem with exploration in this game then Metroidvania may not suit your taste.

I would assume it plays adjacent to the Early Access build, though I imagine they may tweak specific balance points like damage numbers, enemy health pools and the like, but that's pure speculation. That said, I appreciate everything you touched on. I think combat feeling faster would help it feel less monotonous compared to Lilies, as I think that's what made combat feel like it overstayed in Lilies, as well as the longer you fight the same type of enemies, the more repetitive they feel (to me). I do generally like stagger systems in games, though I find they can often be misused for regular enemies, as it feels like they're there to artificially inflate health pools. I can't think of an example where I dislike it for bosses however, as it feels like a reward in a fight.

As for respawning enemies, I did mean in reference to resting at save points or dying. Specifically, their health pools felt larger than they needed and enemy types didn't feel diverse enough, so engaging in fighting the same enemies grew tiresome, particularly when revisisting areas, which is common in Metroidvanias. In a traditional Castlevania game, I feel like the enemy variety really helps with having to fight the many enemies in the same rooms, it can even be useful for farming gear/souls/whatever mechanic you're looking for, but the diversity helps, and the health pools are rarely large. A modern example Blade Chimera has respawning enemies when entering a room, but the diverse encounters never grew old to me during its runtime. Another modern example, Somber Echoes, keeps enemies from respawning until interacting with the rest point, similar to Lilies.

I really enjoyed the map turning colors based on if the secrets were exhausted in an area from Lilies. The area I got the most lost in was toward the beginning where you have to activate switches near the water that didn't feel natural for me to interact with, as I literally didn't see it multiple times and to me there wasn't any good indicator that's what was required. I understand that's oddly specific, but that's the kind of details I'm trying to ask if this game has. As for which end of the map do you have to go to at any one time, I understand that comes with the genre. Despite many in this thread thinking I hate Metroidvanias, I play an awful lot of them. Like any media though, they aren't created equal, and I don't want to miss out on the good experiences that are out there.

[[Lord] Vader]

I found the combat a bit tedious myself past the midway point of the first game, so I'm hoping that's been improved. But I enjoyed the story/setting and overall vibe. I usually enjoy the exploration and platforming aspects of metroidvanias more than the combat. It's hard to do something fun/challenging that holds up over time. Like PoP Lost Crown. Really interesting and involved combat system, especially for a MV. But still got tedious AF later in the game when you're fighting the same guy for the 100th time. Luckily you could individually tune difficulty level.

I did think the combat was headed in the right direction in the early build for what that's worth.

[Jackson]

Originally posted by Lord Vader:

I found the combat a bit tedious myself past the midway point of the first game, so I'm hoping that's been improved. But I enjoyed the story/setting and overall vibe. I usually enjoy the exploration and platforming aspects of metroidvanias more than the combat. It's hard to do something fun/challenging that holds up over time. Like PoP Lost Crown. Really interesting and involved combat system, especially for a MV. But still got tedious AF later in the game when you're fighting the same guy for the 100th time. Luckily you could individually tune difficulty level.

I did think the combat was headed in the right direction in the early build for what that's worth.

Thank you for your response. I also liked the vibe, which is what initially drew me into the first game. I also agree on game length impacting the novelty of any game's systems. It's generally difficult to make an exciting game last double digit hours without it dragging in specific sections, but more directly related to Lilies, I did drop the game around the midway point, as I didn't think it evolved enough and the experience felt tedious to me. You thinking the combat is headed in the right direction does give me more confidence that the sequel has improved on it.

I'll try to peak at some gameplay videoes and try to get a read on if it looks more exciting. There's a lot of back and forth on this thread whether it's a game i could enjoy or not.

[Harven]

So you guys saying the enemy types pool kinda low on this one? Damn,,,
How the map looks? i don't like how the maps works in lilies... for me the best map is the most simple one like typical metroid or castlevania map, its very easy to understand that squared map style.
The worst map is hollow knight imho, don't really know where i was with that one...