The fire mage (and fire element) is too weak

[Beaches Be Crazy]

After having spent the good part of the day getting a single win with the fire mage, I really feel like there's an issue with his kit and the element in general. The issue is, to win I feel you need to abandon most of your elements by getting a different staff and new magic abilities as fast as possible.

For the fire mage, he has two main forms of attack, fire ball and burst of flame. The former is fine, but the latter, while powerful, is too situational to be that helpful. Shield of flames feels useless until you know what elemental type the side dungeons might be (also it's immunity to lava upgrade isn't really helpful since you are still unstable, and the crits matter more than the petty lava damage). Flame portal is helpful, but is often useless. The fire mushroom mechanics really feel not worth spending points on and just saving your talents until you can pick up some other spells, especially because they are completely useless in boss fights. Wall of fire can be strong, but is also somewhat niche in its utility (though it helps that bosses just sit in it). Compare these abilities to the other mages, and so much of fire mage's kit is so situational and can't be used pretty much demanding other spells.

But the fact that the fire element is so much worse than the others doesn't help. Obviously, its weak agains fire resists and you should have issues in fire dungeons, but the fact its weak against ALL enemies in water makes you feel useless in most dungeons (since heavy water is very frequent). Like if you get an eel ambush, that can be a wipe or at least a very annoying fight to deal with if not unwinnable if there are no heal shrooms. You literally can't out dps them with any fire attack and will lose if you don't have heals. So you are forced to drop your staff for a non fire one as soon as possible, and you are forced to get a non-fire spell since the only one you could even use anyway is fireball.

The only benefit of the fire element is that it can burn grass, which is like a one-time lighting effect for water/metal, and it can create steam clouds with water, which I guess can help with escape, but it's not helpful enough to outweigh the cost of doing nothing against enemies in the water. But even if ice zones, which is where using fire should be the most beneficial.

I really feel like that the fire mage needs some spell or at least some spell upgrade that can hit enemies in water without damage mitigation. I think its fine if some classes are harder than others, but fire mage feels most winnable if you just stop being a fire mage, which is probably an issue with the design. The run I was able to win with was because I got lightning bolt early and neutral staff, which carried me through water floors.

This is just my two cents on this class.

[Scar]

Fire mage is one of the strongest classes.

Water is a good thing for fire mage: Steam is incredibly powerful. Steam lets you attack enemies without getting hit. The low damage against eels doesn't matter if they can never see you to attack. No need for heals, you can permanently block eel vision with steam. Steam can also draw ranged enemies onto land in water levels, as they will approach to get in vision.

Wall of fire lets you use burst of flame and flame portal anywhere, this is a key part of the fire mage kit. When you can use the insanely powerful burst of flame and flame portal anywhere...

Every mage should try and get an alternate dmg staff, it is very useful. This is not uniquely a fire mage thing. Same for spells, if you do not get an alternate dmg type you are severly handicapping yourself.

[Frostfeather]

Steam is just situational and lets you make the best of your unfortunate circumstance.

And yes, many elemental mages want another damage type, but fire needs it more than the others do. Then you're left with the fact that fewer cross-class spells work well for a Fire Mage vs other mages.

Not sure yet about enemy resistances in RF4 vs RF3, but in 3, fire resistance was much, much more common than lightning or cold.

[Scar]

Here are some tips for using steam against eels, hope it helps :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgI6Md15fso

Steam is also incredibly effective against Yendor, try it against Storm and Ice Yendor.

Fire mage is not able to use freeze as effectively, this is balanced by being extra effective with poison cloud. What other spells are less effective? (Maybe freezing cloud, but that spell is useless).

There was more stuff with fire res, but after most of the Click Clock Keep had fire resistance removed the raw number is on par with toxic. 40/40/27/11 fire, toxic, cold, shock. 22 enemies are weak to fire, 30 weak to cold. Toxic is by far the worst with no weak enemies, two side dungeons and the abundance of skellies in VoY. Fire/ice feel pretty balanced (1 SD each, equal amounts in the Vault). Shock is the outlier, need a shock related SD to balance things out, and less toxic res in the vault.

[Beaches Be Crazy]

Maybe I just don't understand how sight and hidden mechanics work in this game very well. Because from my experience, enemies just move through the steam more often than not.

[Frostfeather]

I guess with Fire Resistance removed from the Clockwork Factory area, that does fix things for Fire Mage pretty well. It might not be perfect, but that was the biggest issue for me.

I was playing RF3 last night as a Fire Mage and got that area and the Core. Really sucked as I couldn't use a fire spell or starting weapon for most of my run, making my class choice meaningless.

[Scar]

Originally posted by Beaches Be Crazy:

Maybe I just don't understand how sight and hidden mechanics work in this game very well. Because from my experience, enemies just move through the steam more often than not.

Ah, I didn't actually state the basic mechanic: To block vision, you need 1 cloud between you and the enemy. If the enemy is standing in a cloud at the edge, it can see you.

Eels usually cannot move out of the steam as they are stuck in water. Use the way steam expands to make an extra row of clouds in-front of them on land, blocking their vision.

In places like sunken sea, use the way enemies walk through steam to get the ranged enemies onto land. It doesn't prevent all damage, but will let you kill them with fire damage. It can be possible to stand on water and maneuver them onto land, it depends on the terrain and the enemy, and is more risky.

For Yendor, he will try and approach, but every ~10 turns will blink away, making it hard for him to ever get through the steam.

Ranged enemies have a chance to kite away if they are within 3 tiles of you. This can be used to increase the time they are in the steam.

Another little trick with steam is you can block enemy vision to cancel smites or lightning strikes.