Thoughts on paid mods?

[[BANNED]]

What are your thoughts about paid mods for ATS/ETS2? Free mods are one thing, as there is no money being made off of other people's work. Paid mods on the other hand, raise a few interesting issues. Part of me understands that when you work hard to create something, it's not unreasonable to want compensation. But on the other hand, how is it fair that someone would make a profit off of a game they did not contribute to, by using a virtual representation of a truck/trailer made by a company whose permission you didn't get?

I was on a site where they were discussing how people were ripping them off because they were paying for the mod, then turning around and uploading it to a different site for free. How wrong, shameful it was to do such a thing without the mod author's permission, and yet in all reality is that not what they are doing by taking the product of someone else to use for their own benefit? Also, I'm sorry but $20 bucks (the average price from what I saw) is waaaaay too much. I mean that's the same price as the base games themselves. Or, for example, the price of the New Mexico DLC is $12 and for that price you get AN ENTIRE STATE. These are things made by a growing company, who arguably put in far more effort, have many more mouths to feed, and have earned much more in compensation, and STILL it's cheaper.

In summation, I'm very torn on the matter. I think if they should exist, it should only be with the permission of the company/brand they're using. Yes, that may not be possible, but it's only right. You can't demand payment for your work and yet deny payment to the company that made it possible. And I think the prices need to be much more in line with the economy of the game they're targeting.

Again, I'm not quite sure where I stand, and would love to hear your thoughts.

***NOT MEANT TO START ARGUMENTS, FLAME WARS, OR WITCH HUNTS/HARRASSMENT. This is meant to be a mature, respectful, open minded discussion about a rather complex topic. If you cannot, or do not want to adhere to that, plese do not post.***

[Asigion]

The pure fact of the matter is that if a mod maker does not have permission from the trademark owner to use their trademark then that is an infringement of trademark and makes the mods illegal. It does not matter whether the mod maker makes their mods free or whether they make them paid.

There is no difference whether a mod is free or paid, if it infringes trademark law then it is illegal! Just because there are free mods which are on the Workshop does not mean that those mod makers have permission from the trademark owners. It just means that the trademark owner has not taken action against Valve.

These threads always seem to be the same endless arguments about the free mods somehow being less illegal than the paid mods. If someone wants to argue about free mods being less illegal than paid mods then please show me the law which states that a free mod which infringes a trademark law is legal.

Originally posted by Hypertext Eye:

I feel like I have to state here that I do not use unlicensed mods, whether they be free or paid.

I respect people like you and your opinions most in regard to this issue. Most other people don't mind using free mods which infringe the same trademark laws as the paid mods. Therefore, if someone uploaded those same mods they argue so much against they would download them and use them without any more thought about it.

[[BANNED]]

Originally posted by Willy.J.K:

The pure fact of the matter is...

Welp, ban all mods I guess lol. But really, calling alll workshop mods illegal is silly. Many of them a perfectly legal, and allowed by the devs of the respective games, soooooo.... Mods in general are a legal gray area, but only so when no profits are being made it seems. As for less illegal? If that's how we're gonna put it, then yes, it is. One is fair use, the other is legitimately infringement. Here's an excellent article where someone else more knowedgable than me (not hard to do lol) talks about it much more in depth.

https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/33pw0t/licensing_and_mods_coming_from_a_gamer_with_a_bit/

As for that last bit, why do you keep telling us what we will do? Isn't that our choice? Isn't that assuming quite a bit? Or do you just see the future? I'm trying to stay true to my original post my man, and stay and open. But you keep trying to beat us with your opinion, but won't consider anyone else's but yours. That, and telling me that you know what others would do, well it's kinda rude bud. In all of this, I haven't made one assumption about the actions of others, or told you that is wrong to believe the things you do for whatever reason you have to do so. I raised my side of the story, politely, and even overlooked the whole self-righteous dig. It so much to ask the same in exchange? Because on my lowly little donkey here, your horse seems mighty tall there :/

And this?!

Originally posted by Willy.J.K:

I respect people like you and your opinions most in regard to this issue

C'mon, are you kidding me? Whether someone uses paid mods, or unpaid, or licensed, or unlicensed or no mods at all, their opinion should mean no more, no less. If you start going around deciding whose opinions matter more....well, that's not really how life works, is it? Otherwise it would be rather easy for someone to say "You support paid mods, therefore you're biased and your opinion means less.

Regardless of our differences, thanks for taking the time to contribute. It's never a bad thing to look at something from someone else's perspective, so I want to genuinely thank you for that.


Edit: I dun goofed on dem quotes xD

[Nimir-Raj]

I'm too lazy to read 3 pages but here's the basics:

99.9999% of Paid mods are illegal. The breach copyright and trademarks.
Selling this mods under most European (certainly in the UK) countries laws is classed as piracy.
Buying the mods is also illegal for the same reason.

Sadly because many of these paid mod "authors" are in other countries, like Russia for RTA, legal action is often not feasible financially. Nor would it be viable to try and go after the buyers of the mods.

Kenworth Australia had a really good look into RTA a couple of years ago for potential law suits, clearly nothing came of that (yet).

Alot of paid mod authors do not care about long term support for mods you have purchased, they want your money and once they have it updates to those mods can be rare or not at all.

I have a friend who does buy paid mods, he purchased a trailer that was $50. When the game was updated for the new trailer paint system and a the pmg update, he asked the modder to update the trailer. The author, who is still active, flat out refused to update the trailer.

That friend sent me the trailer and TBH it was a polybomb and an absolute mess. It took me about half a day to fully optimise the trailer to SCS standards, make it the new paint system and update all the other things. Now I am not brilliant with blender, so I imagine the author would have been able to do all this way faster than me. But he refused. So for many people who don;t have the option of sending to friends who can mod, that was a $50 trailer that no longer works for them.

I'm not saying all paid modders do this, but there are risks to spending money on mods that could stop working with any update and the author decides they can't be bothered to fix it.

At the end of the day there will always be people will low morals that push out paid mods, and there will always be people who buy them. Each to their own, if you want to spend money doing something that is probably illegal in your country that is your choice. None of us are saints.


Technically speaking, the free mods are illegal too since I doubt most people asked the copyright and trademark owners for permission to replicate their stuff. And no it doesn't fall under fair use or creative commons. But most companies won't do anything about it because it's not worth the legal fees, at worst you might get a cease and desist notice.

[[BANNED]]

Originally posted by Mohegan Moh1336:

None of us are saints.

Speak for yourself, reppin my 3rd street homies :P

Seriously though, well said.

[TwinShadow]

Most of my feelings are already reiterated by others such as Hypertext and Moh.

On that note, I don't use any paid addons except for official DLC from SCS for both ATS and ET2. I do use some mods though and would like to keep them as free. I'd be fine with donating some beer money once in a while (if I ever have spare cash to do so which is hard to come by for me these days) for the work that some of these people do when making mods for both games.

Let's face it, on a technicality, all truck mods for either game would be illegal (although I'm not sure if mods modifying the base trucks from SCS would be considered that, may be one of those legal grey areas) due to the fact that they wouldn't have permission to use the branding logos as they are protected by copyright and trademark laws. And as pointed out, if companies want to continue getting said protection, they do need to enforce their options when necessary.

Now, I do own roughly $300 or so worth of addons for Flight Sim X. Most of which are aircraft and airports. The only company I'm aware that is officially licensed is PMDG with Boeing aircraft. I'm not sure about the others such as the Super80, or the Maddog MD80, or LevelD 767 etc...

I think when it comes to game modding, I don't believe there's anything such as fair use in terms of that. Since that quite isn't what Fair Use is actually for.

[dnthomps]

1. Everything is worth exactly as much as your willing to spend. If it cost too much don't buy it.
2. Stealing copyright is stealing copyright it matters not how much the mod cost 0$ or more. If you don't like people stealing copyright don't use the mod.

Don't use rule 2 to justify rule 1.

[bebrye10]

What I feel is, if Mod Makers are into creating more content for this game that builds more immersion for the the game, it's fine. And, there should be a contractual agreement between Mod Maker and the Company.

[Hypertext Eye]

Originally posted by bebrye10:

there should be a contractual agreement between Mod Maker and the Company.

It's never going to happen. Mod makers won't be able to afford the license fee, and the truck companies would never work with them anyway.

[JDumbz]

I technically pay the ProMod expansion because of the express download that's a $1 each time.

[Capt Fuzzy]

I've seen a lot of good points here, and that confuses me as to why there is such a difference of opinion on this, when most of the points agree, in one fashion or another.

The whole reason for copyright and trademark law is to protect the Intellectual Property (IP) of a person or company. Intellectual Property can range from something physical, all the way to an idea that the author decided to patent. These laws also apply to several things that most people don't even consider. Things like not only the name of a truck, but how it looks and even some specific paintjobs. I'm referring to real-life trucks here, not the ones in the game specifically.

This is one of the reasons that SCS refused to ever make 'fake' trucks again. They were being 'sued' by truck manufacturers, not because the 'fake trucks' had their copyrighted names on them, but because the 'fake trucks' LOOKED like their copyrighted and trademarked trucks.
The first time that they did it, they nearly got into more trouble than they could get out of.
The reason that they attracted so much attention from the manufacturers was that they were already an established business. The manufacturers knew that they were making games that featured trucks that looked like their trucks, and without any kind of legal consent.
That was the last straw for these manufacturers, SCS was using their IP to make money, they did not give permission for this, and they were not getting a 'cut of the action' as it were, so yeah, they went after SCS for violating trademark and copyright law.

To keep on topic, I agree, using an unlicensed mod, whether free or paid IS illegal under copyright and trademark law, period. A person or company can, and do, get sued for unauthorized use of another person or companies IP. Does it happen often? Not necessarily.
Why not? As with ANY law, it can be interpreted a number of ways, and to a number of degrees.
What this means is that if a person or company is using another's IP, without permission, in an effort to somehow undermine, damage or destroy the original owner, then they would probably be more likely to sue the offender. If, on the other hand, the person illegally using the IP was being respectful about it, showing the original owner's IP in a positive light, then this could be considered "good PR" and the original owner may decline to prosecute because there is technically "no harm done".
Yes, the original owner runs the risk of losing their copyright and/or trademark if they do not persue some kind of recourse, but there are a couple of things to consider with that statement.
1. The sheer amount of copyrights and trademarks that currently exist.
It runs in the millions...
2. The type of recourse is not 'etched in stone'.
This means that I could simply send a letter to the 'offender' stating that I did not approve their use of my IP and to stop using it immediately, in other words, a Cease and Desist letter. This would then satisfy my obligation to protect my copyright and/or trademark, from a legal perspective.
Whether or not I choose to take further legal action would solely be up to me and my legal team. This is why some seem to get sued, while others do not. It's usually based on the usage of the IP in question, not just the fact that it was used 'without permission'.

[Ryu]

Originally posted by Ferbinago:

I technically pay the ProMod expansion because of the express download that's a $1 each time.

You're paying them $1 for the priveledge of downloading it from a fast server, as a single file. The map is free. And there is an option not to pay for the fast download. ;)

[[BANNED]]

Damn you guys. Damn you all for being reasonable and ♥♥♥♥. HOW DARE YOU APPROACH ME WITH THIS SENSIBILITY AND FACTUAL EVIDENCE AND EXPECT ME TO CHANGE! YOU MOTHE-

Nah but really though, I just want to say well done guys. Thank you, for the input, and the things that you've taught me. I still feel like the act of making money off that crime is worse, but that is just an opionion, based off of my moral standing (Which is OKAY, Willy >.>). Gotta say, I am quite suprised to see how different our opinions are on the matter, but grateful too. I think what got to me last night so badly was just the pure cojones of the mod makers. I mean the way they were talking about people who were "ripping them off" was disgusting, and quite hypocritical. And that they either were oblivious to the double standard, or just don't think rules should apply to them, was really agrivating and disheartening.

But I feel better now, even if I was wrong in some ways. I aired my take on it, learned a lot, and got to do that adult thing where I had to change my mind a bit. Let's keep it up dudes, and see who else thinks what.

Originally posted by ~{DCMT}~ Ryu:

Originally posted by Ferbinago:

I technically pay the ProMod expansion because of the express download that's a $1 each time.

You're paying them $1 for the priveledge of downloading it from a fast server, as a single file. The map is free. And there is an option not to pay for the fast download. ;)

lol idk why but this just amuses me xD

Edit: eye kant spel vary guud

[Capt Fuzzy]

Originally posted by Dr. Phil-Good:

I think what got to me last night so badly was just the pure cojones of the mod makers. I mean the way they were talking about people who were "ripping them off" was disgusting, and quite hypocritical. And that they either were oblivious to the double standard, or just don't think rules should apply to them, was really agrivating and disheartening.

Yeah, I know what you mean, but to play 'devil's advocate' for a sec here, most of the gripes about being "ripped off" are more about sites taking their mod and monetizing it and/or adding or removing things from it, to cover up the fact that they, in essence, stole it.
I know it can seem pretty silly, "I stole it and now some scumbag stole it from me" kinda thing, but there is actually a legal provision for this kind of thing. It's called "Transfer of Stolen Property".
It's also a double-whammy if you will, as the original thief will most likely expose themselves in order to prosecute the secondary thief. lol

Originally posted by Dr. Phil-Good:

Originally posted by ~{DCMT}~ Ryu:

You're paying them $1 for the priveledge of downloading it from a fast server, as a single file. The map is free. And there is an option not to pay for the fast download. ;)

lol idk why but this just amuses me xD

Yeah, it's like, "No, you aren't paying for the mod, you are paying for the privilege to download it faster."... lol

[[BANNED]]

Originally posted by Capt Fuzzy:

I know it can seem pretty silly, "I stole it and now some scumbag stole it from me" kinda thing, but there is actually a legal provision for this kind of thing. It's called "Transfer of Stolen Property".
It's also a double-whammy if you will, as the original thief will most likely expose themselves in order to prosecute the secondary thief. lol

The site I was looking at was specifically angry about people taking their paid mods and uploading them for free. Regardless, that mentailty is just....idiotic. You can't jack someone's stuff then whine when your punk ass gets jacked back. Tbh, I'm kinda cheering for the guys taking the mods. They're sort of like vigilantes ya know? I did love the posturing of the authors though, "We need to sue these ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and show them this is NOT okay." Like, lol, go ahead. Please. Call me Dirty Harry, because you'd be making my day.

[Capt Fuzzy]

Originally posted by Dr. Phil-Good:

Originally posted by Capt Fuzzy:

I know it can seem pretty silly, "I stole it and now some scumbag stole it from me" kinda thing, but there is actually a legal provision for this kind of thing. It's called "Transfer of Stolen Property".
It's also a double-whammy if you will, as the original thief will most likely expose themselves in order to prosecute the secondary thief. lol

The site I was looking at was specifically angry about people taking their paid mods and uploading them for free. Regardless, that mentailty is just....idiotic. You can't jack someone's stuff then whine when your punk ass gets jacked back. Tbh, I'm kinda cheering for the guys taking the mods. They're sort of like vigilantes ya know? I did love the posturing of the authors though, "We need to sue these ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and show them this is NOT okay." Like, lol, go ahead. Please. Call me Dirty Harry, because you'd be making my day.

Yeah, it's kinda funny how that sometimes plays out... lol