Seems lazy. Should we make this a real game?

[TheVoluntaryist]

From the lazy phrasing...

"You'd like to be doing more with your life, as would your parents"
My parents would like to be doing more with my life? ....What?

to the lack of background, this game is not very in depth at all. What is the REASON for the depression? Is it just chemical? Then why can't I at least self medicate like most depressed people do? The character just feels two dimensional. Since I don't know any of the particulars of their circumstance, it's hard to feel that invested or involved in the character. Who is supposed to be me. Except without any choices. Why aren't there more options...

More than anything, this inspires me to make a better game with more depth and options, but for most of it I just felt railroaded, having ONE available choice over and over is not a simulation. It's a narrative. I think we all understand that this is a billboard for a cause, not an actual game... but what if we made it an actual game? A sim where people were actually in interactive scenarios and dealt with different mental illnesses. There is so much potential here. Someone needs to turn it into a real game. A sort of real world Psychonauts maybe.

[Toveryn]

I would like to point out that, in this arguement, your criticisms largely do not impact what the author's intent of this game was. The purpose was not to create a very large scale experience, wholly throwing a person into a wide variety of possible mental illnesses. The author's intent was to show a small sample of scenarios, through the eyes of a depressed person, so that people better understand what it feels like. This is not meant to be a game about how to get better. This is not meant to be a game about what causes it. When you are depressed, you don't care what causes it, and you have no clue how to get better. The 2-dimensionality is because of both the genericism of the protagonist, who is designed to be relatable, as well as their depression. As noted above in the comments, things make little sense when you are depressed. Thus how surreally the events in the game are presented.

Now, in most narratives, the reason for the character's circumstance is important. However, in dealing with depression, as the person with it, there is no cause for it, you are just depressed. The protagonist of this game directly expresses that in the narrative. As for the writing. This is a valid concern of quality. And as a writer, I personally find that the emotional, difficult topics are the most inspiring and easy to write on. But also consider that certain circumstances and choices do change the way the game plays out, making the story of each playthrough unique in various ways, and writing up that much content is a lot of work. On top of large amounts of content, throw in the fact that the author has been getting a lot of hate for creating a this game, and the stress can help to make things more difficult. So, in my mind, the pieces here and there that could be grammatically improved are understandable as typos. And I never ran through a scenario where any typos or errors had me confused as to what was going on. Another thing to note, is that, when you are more depressed, which the game does track, and notify you of, you have less options available, which is reflective on the fact that people in deeper depression have less motivation and capability to get themselves to do things, and therefore, many options are - in this case, literally - crossed out. Further, the choices you make change your level of depression from one scenario to the next, which would mean that your options affect further choices you make, and how many options you have in further scenarios. And yes, the concepts of why depression occurs in people, and how it can be prevented/treated/managed is very important. But that is not the purpose of the game, the purpose of the game is to increase awareness and understanding of the issue, and the people who have experienced it. In this way, people are more inclined to want to know why it happens or how we can help. But awareness and understanding is always the first step of any issue, be it political, environmental, biological, ecological, economical, or psychological, and this game merely is meant to help make that first step happen.

Thank you for your time,
Cameron Toveryn

[Mr Windblade]

Originally posted by jaysthoughts:

It's not "fair" that that's my opinion? Alright. I guess, lady. It's still my opinion.

Opinions can be wrong, you know.

[TheVoluntaryist]

Cameron- My criticisms were of something the game wasn't trying to be, because I'd like to do something Different than what this game was. I realize this and already pointed it out. Twice.

Fans of this game seem to be mostly angry people... Jesus Christ.

[Air]

There is nothing more annoying than people turning opinion into fact, then attacking anyone that says they aren't necessarily right in what they said.

[Blindlight]

Originally posted by jaysthoughts:

Cameron- My criticisms were of something the game wasn't trying to be, because I'd like to do something Different than what this game was. I realize this and already pointed it out. Twice.

Fans of this game seem to be mostly angry people... Jesus Christ.

I agree with you, I want to see games that try to do something different as well, I think a real psychonaut type game would be awesome. For me, this is also about representation of depression in media, and it's a political issue just like representation of anything in media becomes. Personally I'm not concerned with games as a 'cure' or a 'tool'.. people saying "oh this can be a great TOOL" makes me want to gag. I dont like how mental illness in games always end up becoming 'tools' or help hotlines ("thank god I found this game when I did or else..."), and how mental illness plots in TV shows always end up being the "morality play / raise awareness" episode that seems like they just took a break from the show (sometimes even having the "this is a "special" episode frame at the beginning). Why cant this extremely common human experience find its way into media without being tokenistic? is it not interesting enough on its own to be used in games and films and explored for the sake of the stories rather than becoming a special broadcast telathon? Honestly this is one of the things I loved about Robin Williams so much, his struggle showed through in all of his work, and yet the work stood on its own, and we celebrate him for it, for being a great actor/entertainer, and not just for being the best posterboy in the 'depressed actor / comedian subcategory', his story didnt end up as a lesson for how you should deal with it or find solution.. but that doesnt mean the way he expressed his struggle through the work didnt have a positive impact for how we look at those issues in society. 'well I don't see any way out of this messed up state, but there is all of this comedy I found hidden in it'... the good that comes from creative expression doesnt always require you to have a moral, reason or solution in mind before you start.. and the things that end up doing the most good for 'awareness' or representation are often stories/games that were only trying to be good stories/games

this is not meant to knock the maker of the game, its an amazing achievement to get this kind of thing released on steam, but I want to challenge them to go further and push at the invisible constraints of the 'depression story' trope, and put the game before the message, in order to possibly arrive at an even better message in the end

[TheVoluntaryist]

Well said, Blindlight.

[murderbits]

I have no experience with depression to form much of a basis to conclude anything about it from, but it seemed clear to me that Zoe Quinn's intent was to convey as much about depression through her prose as she possibly could, without nailing it down to such absolute specifics that it would distance itself from people. You'll notice the lack of specificity about the type or origin of the depression as well as the name choices of some of the characters, which could very easily go either way, on the gender toggle.

I think more could be accomplished, as far as a story, if it were presented that way. However, the intention comes across pretty clearly that the focus was intended to be on embedding you into the experience. With that limitation, you've got a very difficult to nearly impossible task in trying to be as open to the biggest audience possible on a shoe-string budget.

Perhaps, with more time and resources, another type of story could be told; rather than directly experienced. I can't imagine how the gameplay would work, but it would be interesting.

[Amnesiac]

Originally posted by Jamie:

I was in this situation once, sometimes still am, i always felt like i couldn't be bothered with it, felt that i had failed and felt so pathetic and my mom helped me through it, it still challenges me sometimes.

All, i am saying is, its not easy to talk about it or even fix it yourself.

I agree with you man except ive never talked about it to anyone, just feels to awkward. I mean no one even knows im depressed

[Toveryn]

Originally posted by jaysthoughts:

Cameron- My criticisms were of something the game wasn't trying to be, because I'd like to do something Different than what this game was. I realize this and already pointed it out. Twice.

Fans of this game seem to be mostly angry people... Jesus Christ.

May I ask what sense it makes, critisizing a game, when your critisizms have nothing to do with the original game's goals? Also, I apologize if I came acrossed as angry, but, I was hoping to, in a longer, more thoughtful post, spark discussion and yet more thoughtful posts, rather than having this page be a total, pointless flame war.

It's perfectly fine that you want to do more with the topic in games. I personally find games a great medium for any topic where we want a person to feel involved and provoke thought. Of course, with a larger budget than the author had, and perhaps a fair bit more time, something more could be done. With that said, how, specifically would you implement this topic as the focus of a larger scale game? What would be the experiences you want players to get out of it? What stuctures and mechanics would re-inforce this target experience, do you think?

[NemesisLeon44]

Game developers making a sim game about accurately-portrayed human behavior? And from the perspective of your character? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. no, they would never. Everything has to be hollywood. Imagine if developers actually put effort into human behavior in games. Then maybe I wouldn't feel like all the human-looking characters in skyrim are just scripted robots with human paint. One of many things that I've been asking for for many years. Still not done. One of many things that I've given up hope on since I don't have the drive to make it myself, and no developer is willing to make what is needed.

[Bellomy]

...is it not interesting enough on its own to be used in games and films and explored for the sake of the stories rather than becoming a special broadcast telathon?

Play "To The Moon", immediately. One of the characters in it has a mental disorder. It's not depression, but the portrayal of the character and her disorder is absolutely the single best I have ever seen in any game, by FAR.

The best part? She's not the main character.

It does EXACTLY what you say should be done about the representation of mental illnesses in media.

[Blindlight]

thanks bellomy I'd really like to check that out-- I still like this game and what its trying to do, guess what pulls my chain a bit is that although theres so much similarity in ppls experience, its also a deeply personal and idiosyncratic thing, and im more interested as a gamer/person in exploring those possible idiosyncracies, hope to see many such characters in the future.


tangent...I think it would be cool to make an 'escape the room' game from the pov of a depressed shut-in where you gradually learn more about them as you go or something. the whole experience can sure feel like a never-ending escape the room game sometimes...