NDB Approach....How do I do It?

[jerdawg]

Can someone tell me how I would do an NDB approach?
The aircraft I am using is a just flight piper arrow IV. I have a garmin 530, KT 76A transponder, KN 62A-DME and a KR-ADF for my avionics package.
Thanks for the help in advance if anyone can answer my question.
BTW- I am flying into KSIY MOG approach from the FJS transition.
Is this the same as setting up a VOR? or do I set the frequency of 404.00 which is the NDB frequency on my ADF???

[SkyBee]

Setting up for an NDB is quite similar to setting up a VOR in the sense that you have to tune the frequency, but you can't select the CRS with an NDB. :)

I looked up the chart. I'll tell you how I would execute the approach...
I'm not familiar with the aircraft, but I will assume that you're using an ADF that rotates in sync with your aircraft heading. If it doesn't, you'll need to manually adjust it to your aircraft heading.

To be honest, a lot of things needed to do here, at least textually, but here goes:

-I would set up my NAV1 to 109.6 (FJS), on CRS 022°
-I would set up my ADF to 404.0 (MOG).

1)From overhead FJS, I'd proceed along the FJS R-022 outbound for 22.2NM. Your eyes should be on your CDI tuned to NAV1. Descending to 8,500 or higher.
2)Switch your focus and eyes now to your ADF once you hit 22.2NM of FJS (aka overhead the MOG NDB).
3)Turn right to proceed on R-161° outbound of MOG, and descend to 6,800. The ADF should look like this: the pointy end of the arrowhead is pointing at 341° at the bottom end of the indicator/the flat end of the arrowhead pointing at 161°, at the top end of the indicator.
4)Commence a procedure turn/course reversal to the left, not exceeding 10NM from MOG.
5)Once procedure turn is completed, track and proceed R-161° INbound of MOG, descending to 4,800. The ADF should still look like as described in 3), except the bottom end and the top ends have switched.
6)Once you're past MOG (indicated by the ADF arrowhead making a 180° turn/switching sides), turn right to proceed R-356° outbound of MOG, descending to MDA of 3,760. ADF should look like this: Top end shows the flat part of the arrhowhead pointing at 356°, Bottom end shows the pointy part of the arrowhead pointing at 176°.

A bit wordy, but I hope it helps.

[jerdawg]

Originally posted by Droo!:

Setting up for an NDB is quite similar to setting up a VOR in the sense that you have to tune the frequency, but you can't select the CRS with an NDB. :)

I looked up the chart. I'll tell you how I would execute the approach...
I'm not familiar with the aircraft, but I will assume that you're using an ADF that rotates in sync with your aircraft heading. If it doesn't, you'll need to manually adjust it to your aircraft heading.

To be honest, a lot of things needed to do here, at least textually, but here goes:

-I would set up my NAV1 to 109.6 (FJS), on CRS 022°
-I would set up my ADF to 404.0 (MOG).

1)From overhead FJS, I'd proceed along the FJS R-022 outbound for 22.2NM. Your eyes should be on your CDI tuned to NAV1. Descending to 8,500 or higher.
2)Switch your focus and eyes now to your ADF once you hit 22.2NM of FJS (aka overhead the MOG NDB).
3)Turn right to proceed on R-161° outbound of MOG, and descend to 6,800. The ADF should look like this: the pointy end of the arrowhead is pointing at 341° at the bottom end of the indicator/the flat end of the arrowhead pointing at 161°, at the top end of the indicator.
4)Commence a procedure turn/course reversal to the left, not exceeding 10NM from MOG.
5)Once procedure turn is completed, track and proceed R-161° INbound of MOG, descending to 4,800. The ADF should still look like as described in 3), except the bottom end and the top ends have switched.
6)Once you're past MOG (indicated by the ADF arrowhead making a 180° turn/switching sides), turn right to proceed R-356° outbound of MOG, descending to MDA of 3,760. ADF should look like this: Top end shows the flat part of the arrhowhead pointing at 356°, Bottom end shows the pointy part of the arrowhead pointing at 176°.

A bit wordy, but I hope it helps.

Droo;
Thank you very much for that well detailed description. I'm sure it might take me several attempts but I will try until I succeed. I will give it a go tomorrow after work. Thank you very much for taking some of your time up to help me out here!!

[jerdawg]

first attempt....fail
I turned the wrong way on my approach. instead of making my procedure turn to the right I went left as I seen the airport to my left.
Like you said I was supposed to fly away in the other direction and then turn again towards the airport as I dropped altitude. I will try again. I thank you again for giving my all that advice.

[SkyBee]

It's a common mistake. :)
A tip I remind myself to do when making a PT is what direction my turn was last time. If my beginning turn was a left turn, then I know that the u-turn going back will be a right turn. :)

[jerdawg]

Originally posted by Droo!:

It's a common mistake. :)
A tip I remind myself to do when making a PT is what direction my turn was last time. If my beginning turn was a left turn, then I know that the u-turn going back will be a right turn. :)

I'm not a real life pilot but I try to follow the right procedures.
I never came to an approach like this where you have to do a turn away and then come back in.
My question is why not start the approach farther out from the airport where you can come straight in like alot of other approaches do?
If I'm not mistaken I didn't see any obstacles where I couldn't do it that way.
Maybe someone can answer this?
I'm just curious.
Thank you.

[SkyBee]

Looking at the area surronding KSIY, it seems there is another airport to the south (O46) that has an RNAV/GPS approach to RWY 14. My bet is that the NDB approach into KSIY wasn't designed feeder routes for a straight-in approach to avoid interfering with the RNAV approach to the other airport, O46.

Another guess is simply due to the terrain, which more often than not is the most common reason. Keeping a distance laterally to obstacles like mountains is as important as vertically clearing them, especially if doing the approach at night time.

I'm no expert at this, nor do I know the "handbook/rulebook" for designing instrument approaches, so I wouldn't know the exact numbers and rules as to how this specific approach was designed. But the procedure designers have to keep all those in mind.

My money's on "Because it's close to another airport's instrument approach", for this specific NDB APCH into SIY, tho.

[jerdawg]

Originally posted by Droo!:

Looking at the area surronding KSIY, it seems there is another airport to the south (O46) that has an RNAV/GPS approach to RWY 14. My bet is that the NDB approach into KSIY wasn't designed feeder routes for a straight-in approach to avoid interfering with the RNAV approach to the other airport, O46.

Another guess is simply due to the terrain, which more often than not is the most common reason. Keeping a distance laterally to obstacles like mountains is as important as vertically clearing them, especially if doing the approach at night time.

I'm no expert at this, nor do I know the "handbook/rulebook" for designing instrument approaches, so I wouldn't know the exact numbers and rules as to how this specific approach was designed. But the procedure designers have to keep all those in mind.

My money's on "Because it's close to another airport's instrument approach", for this specific NDB APCH into SIY, tho.

That makes sense to me.
I really appreciate your time in explaining this particular approach. I learned alot on this thread.
I'm going to give it another shot tomorrow again to see if I can get it right next time.
Thanks Droo

[ZombieHunter]

Keep in mind NDB and VOR approaches are non precision approaches and should not be attempted in IMC or SVFR conditions near terrain. They are also much more difficult at night depending on the lighting in the area. If your in IMC and there is no precision approach available best to alter your destination to an airport that has one or find a field that is VFR. At night you should probably make use of your timer to make sure you are tracking correctly. Approach plates have timings on them to aid you.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/qLfHh.png

The Marshall football team plane crash is evidence of what can go wrong when a non precision approach is attempted in IMC or near IMC. Sadly, more recently, the Kobe Bryant helicopter crash is evidence of what can happen in SVFR conditions near terrain. Best to go IFR if possible or find another field. SVFR is probably not in the sim and IRL is universally denied for fixed wing aircraft.

[jerdawg]

Originally posted by ZombieHunter:

Keep in mind NDB and VOR approaches are non precision approaches and should not be attempted in IMC or SVFR conditions near terrain. They are also much more difficult at night depending on the lighting in the area. If your in IMC and there is no precision approach available best to alter your destination to an airport that has one or find a field that is VFR. At night you should probably make use of your timer to make sure you are tracking correctly. Approach plates have timings on them to aid you.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/qLfHh.png

The Marshall football team plane crash is evidence of what can go wrong when a non precision approach is attempted in IMC or near IMC. Sadly, more recently, the Kobe Bryant helicopter crash is evidence of what can happen in SVFR conditions near terrain. Best to go IFR if possible or find another field. SVFR is probably not in the sim and IRL is universally denied for fixed wing aircraft.

Thanks for the good comment.
However I do not know what IMC or SVFR
stands for?
Sorry.

[John W]

IMC - Instrument Meteorological Conditions - meaning you are in the clouds and cannot see. SVFR - Special Visual Flight Rules - conditions where you are below visual flight rule conditions but not quite IMC.

This is overkill but you may want to look through this:
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/instrument_procedures_handbook/media/faa-h-8083-16b.pdf
it is the Instrument Handbook put out by the FAA. Explains the rules and procedures for flying instrument approaches.

Here is a link to their website where you can read up on all of the rules regulations and procedures. https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/

[jerdawg]

Originally posted by John W:

IMC - Instrument Meteorological Conditions - meaning you are in the clouds and cannot see. SVFR - Special Visual Flight Rules - conditions where you are below visual flight rule conditions but not quite IMC.

This is overkill but you may want to look through this:
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/instrument_procedures_handbook/media/faa-h-8083-16b.pdf
it is the Instrument Handbook put out by the FAA. Explains the rules and procedures for flying instrument approaches.

Here is a link to their website where you can read up on all of the rules regulations and procedures. https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/

Thanks alot John!
Learn something everyday......I will check it out.

[Thogmar]

None of the answers here address an actual real NDB approach, you don't do it by setting up a VOR radial or any other crutch (they may not be available and you're not using the power of the NDB itself), there are specific techniques and issues at hand.
So simply go to YouTube and watch some videos on how it's done, as I and many other real world and sim pilots do. It's a rapidly disappearing system and art, but it's fun to do if you're bored with other nav processes. (Hint, hint to all of you sim jocks who get bored without missiles or an economy game or whatever)
Also a welcome change of pace from punching buttons on an FMC/GPS and riding a magic carpet.

[jerdawg]

Originally posted by Thogmar:

None of the answers here address an actual real NDB approach, you don't do it by setting up a VOR radial or any other crutch (they may not be available and you're not using the power of the NDB itself), there are specific techniques and issues at hand.
So simply go to YouTube and watch some videos on how it's done, as I and many other real world and sim pilots do. It's a rapidly disappearing system and art, but it's fun to do if you're bored with other nav processes. (Hint, hint to all of you sim jocks who get bored without missiles or an economy game or whatever)
Also a welcome change of pace from punching buttons on an FMC/GPS and riding a magic carpet.

Thanks for the suggestion Thogmar. I will definitely check it out. I myself am having fun trying to do this stuff. Is definitely a change of pace.

[Maki Nishikino]

Originally posted by Thogmar:

...a welcome change of pace from punching buttons on an FMC/GPS and riding a magic carpet.

Wonderful metaphor, lol.