Challenge versus chore: a class comparison

[Beta Ray Shill]

Changing this to a class comparison, after several high brow discussions on this thread re: how bad the merc is versus the sorc class I played.

I've created a number of videos as 'evidence' over the course of this thread.

The critical issue with the game is that the 'key ingredients' are left as a secret, or puzzle, for the player to unearth, yet are game-changing when you learn of the secret.

In other words, if you feel the game is hard and they tell you 'skill issue', and it seems a bit reductive and dense, what they really mean is that you're missing some simple knowledge that the game keeps from you, for no reason.

I'm at Act 2 with the merc and sorc, same level.

But the sorc has been sailing through the game, whereas the merc has been struggling.

The issue was merely that I hadn't socketed the crossbow and added 2 'elemental damage' runes. That's it.

The sorc doesn't need them because she gets +1 to skills and +40% spell damage etc from mere magic items.

---

Merc - level 26

As many damage increase nodes as is mathematically possible at lv 26:

12% + 12% +12% + 12% + 12% + 40%
10% + 10% + 10% + 15%
10% + 10% + 10% + 16%

Total 191% increase

Crossbow bolt dps with 2 main weapons:

Rapart Raptor (unique): 179.7 dps
Varnished crossbow (magic): 233.8 dps

---

The above merc could not even do a fraction of the sorc's damage versus the same bosses.

Exhibit 1 - collosus fight

Sorc (gets boss to 5% HP 1st try, beats him 2nd try):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo1NlrAa6tI
Merc (gets boss to 40% HP after multiple attemtps:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76Gsa4Wjmo0

Exhibit 2 - Exrab and Iktab fight

Sorc (beats boss on 1st try):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IC-ViGU2-M
Merc (well over 10+ attempts, collectively gets boss to 50%)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McruV6wkGlU

---

Now just socket the merc's crossbow and add 2 elemental runes. Check the difference for both of the same fights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4Y1Fw9Abws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EohpiK3UXdw&feature=youtu.be

---

And now for the list of challenges versus chores (as I see it), where challenges are good-difficult and chores are ‘not entertainment anymore’ difficult.

Challenges (good)

1. Diverse, often surprising moveset of the bosses
   
2. Boss-like skills on basic enemies (meteors, lightning storms etc)
   
3. High HP shield-bearing enemies that block front assaults
   
4. Need for combination of skills over 1-2

Chores (bad)

1. Bosses with crazy HP and defences if you don't have perfectly optimised gear (that's fine, but it should be made clear how you achieve this: as proven above, it's simple unless you know the 'secret ingredient')
   
2. Bosses with one-shot attacks = cheap reset
   
3. Bosses with unavoidable attacks = cheap reset
   
4. Certain boss adds requiring excessive clean up duties = more work than work itself
   
5. Honour mechanic and having to repeat the section upon ‘fail’ - and then having to do it several times over (on harder difficulties) to gain further skills?
   
6. Zones 30-35% too large - this just makes them go from fresh and interesting for the first half to really boring busywork by the last half

[Grimmx]

Originally posted by Beta Ray Shill:

Originally posted by Grimmx:

Ok buddy.

No bother 'mate' - just hope your merc build is more reliable than your claims of 'not checking in on this thread again'. Because the latter appears to be lies based on how many times you keep checking back in after saying 'I'm done'

Mostly because you keep posting damage control posts.
But i will unsubscribe now Mr Millionare.

[Beta Ray Shill]

Originally posted by Grimmx:

Mostly because you keep posting damage control posts.
But i will unsubscribe now Mr Millionare.

Sure thing - I'll tell the lads on Mon that my latest 'idea' is just 'damage control' because a guy on the internet was saying that's what quoting facts actually equates to.

Anyways, best of luck with your merc build.

But I'll leave this one with ya:

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

- Bertrand Russell

[Dreadisan]

Sorc Damage is more reliant on the level of the skill while the merc damage is more reliant on the weapon.
Also if you think uniqes are better than rares your mistaken. Usually uniqes are good for 1 niche thing and meh on most other things.
Go to poe trade and look for a high phys crossbow thats not a uniqe.
the uniqe crossbows have a base of like 12 avg dmg.
i saw a xc bow that deals an average of 36 with no +% phys dmg on them and you can get like 60-80% on that.

[Beta Ray Shill]

Originally posted by Dreadisan:

Also if you think uniqes are better than rares your mistaken. Usually uniqes are good for 1 niche thing and meh on most other things.

I literally quoted in the OP that the magic weapon deals many times more dps.

It still has no impact on mobs versus the sorc.

Anyway, thanks for your contributions.

When I get to the same level with the sorc, I will simply quote the equipment and dps.

And then compare it back to the same with the merc.

Lectures will not qualify as answers (obliviously).

If the person has nothing to hide, they will simply quote the gear and stats so that we can all make a meaningful comparison.

Otherwise, why so cagey about revealing the stats?

Nothing to hide, right?

[Melanie222]

Originally posted by Beta Ray Shill:

Crossbow bolt dps with 2 main weapons:

Rapart Raptor (unique): 179.7 dps
Varnished crossbow (magic): 233.8 dps[/olist]

You need a better build bud. You also seem to be weirdly focused on the dps of your basic bolt attack. You do know that you have a variety of options for shots that change how your character play? If you're trying to play with only your basic shot I don't think Path of Exile or any other ARPG is for you.

Here's my weapn, level, dps of basic shot and my skill tree. Which my skill tree build is terrible anyway.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3384557231

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3384557477

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3384557373

[Grimmx]

Originally posted by Beta Ray Shill:

Originally posted by Grimmx:

Mostly because you keep posting damage control posts.
But i will unsubscribe now Mr Millionare.

Sure thing - I'll tell the lads on Mon that my latest 'idea' is just 'damage control' because a guy on the internet was saying that's what quoting facts actually equates to.

Anyways, best of luck with your merc build.

But I'll leave this one with ya:

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

- Bertrand Russell

Yes, feel free to copy paste the URL to this thread so the "Lads" can read up on the facts.

That Betrand Russel quote really put me in my place.
I mean, maybe im stupid. Im really confused now.

I'm going to bed.

[Metadigital]

I got to the end of Act II on a mercenary before getting frustrated and trying something different, and that was also a sorceress.

I'm in brutal now with sorceress, and while I have struggled a few times, it's certainly been better than on the mercenary.

In both cases I performed significantly worse when I invested any of my passives into any kind of defense. That allowed me to sometimes survive a little better, but not significantly, and at a massive cost when it comes to bosses. I've found that it's much easier to dodge fewer boss mechanics than it is to sometimes survive them.

It seems very clear to me that the difficulty is at the highest possible level the devs thought they could get away with. They're clearly trying a slower and more methodical direction to gameplay with the sequel, and it's testing the limits of what is enjoyable for an ARPG. On the whole I think it's a good attempt, but it's also overshot the difficulty that I think is realistic if the game is going to have a large playerbase long term.

I haven't dared try a melee class at this point because that just seems like a form of self abuse. With player damage so low and boss damage so high, the only way I can imagine playing this game in its current state is as a ranged glass cannon.

[we_are_ven0m]

I never played PoE1, but I played Diablo 1-4, Titan Quest, Marvel Champions Omega, Grim Dawn, and Last Epoch all to a high level. So my experience has been one of self-teaching and intuition. That said I rolled mercenary and it has been a breeze.

Encountered some teething issues at the start while I was experimenting. Some of the ammo skills are just not good. I actually went Witchunter but rerolled a new toon as Gemling Legionnaire because I think it will be more durable in the end (lots of things oneshot in the endgame if you don't build tank). Act 1-2 I only ended up using Fragmentation Rounds and grenades.

I'm on a grenades-only build, I have Explosive Shot but I maybe only use it once per minute. Explosive Grenade + Gas Grenade combo is its bread and butter, mix in some Flash Grenades to help stun bosses, and eventually Oil Grenades and Cluster Bombs for utility. X-bows count as two-handed weapons so benefit from the early passive nodes for that, then you want increased area size so they overlap, reduced skill duration lowers the fuse timers, attack speed lets you fire more. Get a bombard crossbow (starting in act 3) with the highest base damage, and annihilate every screen with 2 buttons.

I'm in mid-tier maps atm. My explosive grenades do 3k base without gas explosion and they can overlap (I shoot 5 of them). It takes me ~20 seconds to kill Doryani's final form on cruel.

[Melanie222]

Just gonna gloss over the actual proof I posted that if you're getting the stats you are getting at level 23 you're doing something wrong? I have very few straight damage stats at level 17 and still have 203 dps on regular crossbow bolt, and 5 levels can make a huge difference in available passives and gear.

[Beta Ray Shill]

Originally posted by Melanie222:

Just gonna gloss over the actual proof I posted that if you're getting the stats you are getting at level 23 you're doing something wrong? I have very few straight damage stats at level 17 and still have 203 dps on regular crossbow bolt, and 5 levels can make a huge difference in available passives and gear.

What proof did you post?

Where is it?

Not level 23, as stated.

level 26.

14 node investment in damage increase. 191% increase.

Weapon - best unique currently for the merc in the game.

Post your stats.

[we_are_ven0m]

You are a silly goose.

Best unique for a merc while levelling is Corpsetreads, to make every body into a little extra gas grenade. Unique weapons are just bad compared to things you buy from vendors and rares you can craft. Essentially the only stat that matters to a merc on weapon is damage, unless you can find me an unique x-bow that rivals the 230 max mine has?

All this to say, if you don't like mercenary then play sorcerer if that is what floats your boat. I just spent the evening on my merc boosting random sorcerers who can't solo the chaos trial or kill Doryani.

[Panthaz89]

Nice feedback pretty much spot on with everything though I don't mind the maps being too big personally.

[Melanie222]

Originally posted by Beta Ray Shill:

Originally posted by Melanie222:

Just gonna gloss over the actual proof I posted that if you're getting the stats you are getting at level 23 you're doing something wrong? I have very few straight damage stats at level 17 and still have 203 dps on regular crossbow bolt, and 5 levels can make a huge difference in available passives and gear.

What proof did you post?

Where is it?

Not level 23, as stated.

level 26.

14 node investment in damage increase. 191% increase.

Weapon - best unique currently for the merc in the game.

Post your stats.

The three literal in game images, which unlike your word, actually show my stats.

[Ray64]

I haven't played merc class yet but doesn't merc use martial weapons? Meaning the damage is scaled off the weapon * skill gem * passives. Whereas the sorc doesn't use a weapon but a staff or a wand and the damage is purely from the skill gem * passives so those skill gems have to supply their own flat damage.

That also means that sorc/witch can do better early on with crap gear than the other classes that rely on weapons.

Early game the damage passive nodes are really not that important, what is more important is having a decent weapon and sufficient skill gem sustain.

Like I started with a sorc but didn't like the way it played so I started a warrior and I just beat the normal campaign with it (in SSF), and I only have like half a dozen nodes on the passive tree that increase damage, the more important things on the passive tree that more impact-fully affect my damage output are the things that let me use a better weapon and have more health and sustain.

In terms of weapons upgrade I only upgraded the weapon I was using twice in the campaign and then I just got an upgrade in act 1 of cruel, which is significant to the point that its minimum damage is the same as my previous weapons maximum damage and it is much faster attack speed haha.

Lastly, don't trust the dps number that the skill gem page tells you.. it is not likely accurate. For one thing there are secondary and tertiary skill effects that do not appear to be included in the dps stat metric. There are also the synergy effects which it doesn't include either.

[Beta Ray Shill]

Originally posted by we_are_ven0m:

Best unique for a merc while levelling is Corpsetreads

Post the math if you're not afraid.

Oh, don't wanna do that?

Cool.

Still wondering why I'm cleaning up with the sorc without any effort - maybe one of these dudes can tell me how that's happening. I'm imagining it, am I?

Or I just happened to get so unlucky with the merc, that from the start to lvl 26 it was excruciating, even with a unique weapon and 191% damage increase.

I mean, how do you defend a 14 node investment...in 191% damage...when my level 9 sorc is already 50% there without any investment?

Also, just the fact that it has been a breeze with the sorc since the start?

Originally posted by Panthaz89:

Nice feedback pretty much spot on with everything though I don't mind the maps being too big personally.

Thanks for checking in, sane person.

As for everyone else - stats? Evidence?

Go crazy with it.

Also, why am I having such an easy time with the sorc if I was 'full of it' all along?