Challenge versus chore: a class comparison

[Beta Ray Shill]

Changing this to a class comparison, after several high brow discussions on this thread re: how bad the merc is versus the sorc class I played.

I've created a number of videos as 'evidence' over the course of this thread.

The critical issue with the game is that the 'key ingredients' are left as a secret, or puzzle, for the player to unearth, yet are game-changing when you learn of the secret.

In other words, if you feel the game is hard and they tell you 'skill issue', and it seems a bit reductive and dense, what they really mean is that you're missing some simple knowledge that the game keeps from you, for no reason.

I'm at Act 2 with the merc and sorc, same level.

But the sorc has been sailing through the game, whereas the merc has been struggling.

The issue was merely that I hadn't socketed the crossbow and added 2 'elemental damage' runes. That's it.

The sorc doesn't need them because she gets +1 to skills and +40% spell damage etc from mere magic items.

---

Merc - level 26

As many damage increase nodes as is mathematically possible at lv 26:

12% + 12% +12% + 12% + 12% + 40%
10% + 10% + 10% + 15%
10% + 10% + 10% + 16%

Total 191% increase

Crossbow bolt dps with 2 main weapons:

Rapart Raptor (unique): 179.7 dps
Varnished crossbow (magic): 233.8 dps

---

The above merc could not even do a fraction of the sorc's damage versus the same bosses.

Exhibit 1 - collosus fight

Sorc (gets boss to 5% HP 1st try, beats him 2nd try):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo1NlrAa6tI
Merc (gets boss to 40% HP after multiple attemtps:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76Gsa4Wjmo0

Exhibit 2 - Exrab and Iktab fight

Sorc (beats boss on 1st try):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IC-ViGU2-M
Merc (well over 10+ attempts, collectively gets boss to 50%)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McruV6wkGlU

---

Now just socket the merc's crossbow and add 2 elemental runes. Check the difference for both of the same fights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4Y1Fw9Abws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EohpiK3UXdw&feature=youtu.be

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And now for the list of challenges versus chores (as I see it), where challenges are good-difficult and chores are ‘not entertainment anymore’ difficult.

Challenges (good)

1. Diverse, often surprising moveset of the bosses
   
2. Boss-like skills on basic enemies (meteors, lightning storms etc)
   
3. High HP shield-bearing enemies that block front assaults
   
4. Need for combination of skills over 1-2

Chores (bad)

1. Bosses with crazy HP and defences if you don't have perfectly optimised gear (that's fine, but it should be made clear how you achieve this: as proven above, it's simple unless you know the 'secret ingredient')
   
2. Bosses with one-shot attacks = cheap reset
   
3. Bosses with unavoidable attacks = cheap reset
   
4. Certain boss adds requiring excessive clean up duties = more work than work itself
   
5. Honour mechanic and having to repeat the section upon ‘fail’ - and then having to do it several times over (on harder difficulties) to gain further skills?
   
6. Zones 30-35% too large - this just makes them go from fresh and interesting for the first half to really boring busywork by the last half

[Beta Ray Shill]

I guess this might as well become a 'dear diary' thread where I catalogue the challenges vs chores as they apply to each class that I play.

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I've started again with a sorc, and I'm now level 9. The ember skill alone does nearly 100 dps. Versus the merc's strongest dps of 179 dps with a unique (?!) and 233 dps with a magic item. That's with 191% increased damage from a total node investment of 14 nodes!

There's something seriously wrong with that.

They need to lean into the 'slow but heavy hitter' idea of the merc. He needs roughly 50-60% damage increase.

By comparison, the sorc feels very balanced for standard difficulty. Nothing is a real challenge, as it should be at this 'difficulty'. It's enjoyably simple, while still requiring combos etc (though they could maybe do some more with this very good creative idea).

I'm keen to see her stats when she gets to level 26 like the above literally useless merc.

[Gingilica]

Just wait until you get to the part where even the normal melee attacks can be fatal as a squishy class (sorc). Whereas some classes can face tank normal hits, as a sorc you will have to cancel roll out of those as well. Combine this with ramp-up dmg from bosses and your own ramp-up time needed to do dmg.
If you had problems with merc ... you won`t like it at all with sorc.

[Beta Ray Shill]

Originally posted by Gingilica:

If you had problems with merc ... you won`t like it at all with sorc.

Completely annihilating everything with the sorc, with no uniques. Will have to test your theory once I get to level 26, but so far she is 100 million miles more powerful than the lacklustre merc.

BTW, I'm quoting stats above. You are merely lecturing me on the topic.

What is the math that backs up what you're saying?

As in, 14 node investment in 'damage increase' for merc's heaviest hitting skill only gets a unique 91% more dps than the level 9 sorc's zero-investment low level skill???

Anyway, I've not long to go to verify your theories, as I'm going through the content precisely 10 times faster than the useless merc. We'll soon see when she's the equivalent level.

[AbientAle]

I am willing to try/attempt most of what the game offers for EA will balance and other changes by lots. But that trial crap has to go imho. I am disabled and "not getting hit" is probably the one gaming activity I am thee WORST at, and they made it MANDATORY for subclass access here. Then PENALIZE you for getting touched, then make it even harder then higher you go? Sadism from the devs imo. WTFH? I'd rather watch water evaporate in the shade on a cold day. lol -my 2 cents

[fx!]

First time levelling experience usually boils down to when your build comes "online". It depends on a lot of factors not just mathematically best tree path, for me the moment was when I figured out good combo of skills/support gems. And of course getting lucky with drops helps as well.

[Beta Ray Shill]

Originally posted by AbientAle:

But that trial crap has to go imho.

It had to go with the merc. But I'm looking forward to the results with the sorc.

She's not OP IMO, just balanced. The merc is frickin useless.

I like the rogue-lite idea of the trials, but the first one at least has a wretched mechanic in that 'honour' idea.

It disrespects the player's time. It's a game. It's not important to progression in life. It's supposed to be just some de-stress activity.

I'm sure the 'full time POE-heads' will tell me otherwise. Well as a customer, I'm telling them otherwise.

So there you go.

[Grimmx]

I rolled through Act2 today. Killed all bosses and the only one that was challenging was the last one. I had to google him because i couldn't see what to do in the desert storm part.
But after that and some lightning resists and respec into Ice dmg he died first try. (ice bomb)

Its all about figuring out what to do in the fights, what dmg to use, what resists you need, and get the mechanics right.

I'm far from having any uber gear.
I am doing a hybrid fire/minion Witch build with archer/warrior pets and poison ignite explosion on archers. And that has carried me to lvl 38 and act3 so far.

But yes, you got to be able to set up some synergy on the build, and dodge the heavy hits.

Edit. And i am playing on SSF as well.

[Shajirr]

Hmm, I beat Iktab and Ekbab first try with a Witch minion build.
Had some close calls but ultimately won.

I did fail the Trial of Sekmeh earlier though... even though I got to the boss with like 80% honour, at around third of boss' health the entire damn screen was flooded with AoEs, which of course murder minions, and I didn't have the dps to kill the boss before all honor was gone...

Don't think many people like the trials. I think it was a mistake making them mandatory.

But ultimately a lot of factors can influence how builds perform. I would advise to probably just go and see what other people are doing with the class rather than abandoning it right away.

[Beta Ray Shill]

Originally posted by Grimmx:

I am doing a hybrid fire/minion Witch build with archer/warrior pets and poison ignite explosion on archers.

Was waiting for this part.

'Reroll' as a merc. Come back to me with your experience.

The classes are imbalanced. The sorc so far is melting every single thing.

Meanwhile, I thought it was normal that you cannot use skills in battle (merc has no viable skills against bosses) and that you have to rely on the 'basic attack' (bolt) and that's why bosses were labelled impossible.

I was nodding along until I got to a point in Act 2 where even my unique with 191% damage increase from nodes was barely affecting mobs several levels lower than me (the place of the titans, or whatever it's called).

Playing a sorc now and lmao... It is a night and day difference.

But yeah, the real test is seeing if she maintains this momentum up to the level 26 that my useless merc was at.

When I say 'useless', I mean there is nothing you could equip this guy with, nor any passive skill tree change, that would make his damage meaningful - because he was at 191% extra damage with a unique, and could not even take 5% off the HP of basic mobs!

I added the math above. It's math. Not 'theory'. Math is fact. Being lectured is theory - if anyone thinks the merc is viable at mid-level (26), show me the numbers and we'll talk.

[Beta Ray Shill]

Originally posted by Shajirr:

Hmm, I beat Iktab and Ekbab first try with a Witch minion build.

Yeah I'm steam-rolling everything as a sorc versus the merc. Witch build seems like easy mode.

I'm saying, play the game as a merc. Talk to me then when you can even kill a basic enemy several times lower than your 'level', with a unique and 191% extra damage from a 14-node investment.

That's what I'm calling out as comedy here.

[Grimmx]

Originally posted by Beta Ray Shill:

Originally posted by Grimmx:

I am doing a hybrid fire/minion Witch build with archer/warrior pets and poison ignite explosion on archers.

Was waiting for this part.

'Reroll' as a merc. Come back to me with your experience.

The classes are imbalanced. The sorc so far is melting every single thing.

Meanwhile, I thought it was normal that you cannot use skills in battle (merc has no viable skills against bosses) and that you have to rely on the 'basic attack' (bolt) and that's why bosses were labelled impossible.

I was nodding along until I got to a point in Act 2 where even my unique with 191% damage increase from nodes was barely affecting mobs several levels lower than me (the place of the titans, or whatever it's called).

Playing a sorc now and lmao... It is a night and day difference.

But yeah, the real test is seeing if she maintains this momentum up to the level 26 that my useless merc was at.

When I say 'useless', I mean there is nothing you could equip this guy with, nor any passive skill tree change, that would make his damage meaningful - because he was at 191% extra damage with a unique, and could not even take 5% off the HP of basic mobs!

I added the math above. It's math. Not 'theory'. Math is fact. Being lectured is theory - if anyone thinks the merc is viable at mid-level (26), show me the numbers and we'll talk.

I'm going to play a Merc eventually. And i cant see how i will fail on that class either TBH.
I did warrior with 1h and shield through act1 with only 8 deaths.
And i am on SSF with only self made builds.

This is not bragging, you just need to sit down and build right, try skills and find out what works or not. I even tried a 2h verion of warrior, and i thought he was even better than my 1h/shield dude.
Its a solo experience for me, i have all the time in the world. You need to figure things out, and negativity and frustration wont help you.

[Beta Ray Shill]

Originally posted by Grimmx:

You need to figure things out, and negativity and frustration wont help you.

Math my good bud.

191% damage from 14 node investment - strongest dps with a unique at level 26 = 179 dps.

Sorc level 9, no uniques - strongest dps = 100 dps.

Don't patronise me with 'frustration' if you're playing easy mode all the way with your automation witch build, where you are just watching the game play out for you.

Go do what I did - play merc.

You come back to me then and tell me your 'build', since I have turned him into a max-damage build which cannot even impact basic enemies.

I'm talking from experience, you are talking from 'thinking about doing it someday'.

Also, what did I say about the sorc?

Easy, easy, easy, easy, easy.

That's what I said.

Didn't even need to think about the 'build', I'm just clicking nodes that seem interesting and there's no impact. She's still dominating over the merc.

[Grimmx]

Originally posted by Beta Ray Shill:

Originally posted by Grimmx:

You need to figure things out, and negativity and frustration wont help you.

Math my good bud.

191% damage from 14 node investment - strongest dps with a unique at level 26 = 179 dps.

Sorc level 9, no uniques - strongest dps = 100 dps.

Don't patronise me with 'frustration' if you're playing easy mode all the way with your automation witch build, where you are just watching the game play out for you.

Go do what I did - play merc.

You come back to me then and tell me your 'build', since I have turned him into a max-damage build which cannot even impact basic enemies.

I'm talking from experience, you are talking from 'thinking about doing it someday'.

Also, what did I say about the sorc?

Easy, easy, easy, easy, easy.

That's what I said.

Didn't even need to think about the 'build', I'm just clicking nodes that seem interesting and there's no impact. She's still dominating over the merc.

Yeah right.

[Beta Ray Shill]

Originally posted by Grimmx:

Yeah right.

What are you directing that at?

Facts?

You want to call the one in particular that you think I'm lying about?

Quote it.

[Grimmx]

Originally posted by Grimmx:

Originally posted by Beta Ray Shill:

Math my good bud.

191% damage from 14 node investment - strongest dps with a unique at level 26 = 179 dps.

Sorc level 9, no uniques - strongest dps = 100 dps.

Don't patronise me with 'frustration' if you're playing easy mode all the way with your automation witch build, where you are just watching the game play out for you.

Go do what I did - play merc.

You come back to me then and tell me your 'build', since I have turned him into a max-damage build which cannot even impact basic enemies.

I'm talking from experience, you are talking from 'thinking about doing it someday'.

Also, what did I say about the sorc?

Easy, easy, easy, easy, easy.

That's what I said.

Didn't even need to think about the 'build', I'm just clicking nodes that seem interesting and there's no impact. She's still dominating over the merc.

Yeah right.

Funny how Merc was one of the most popular streamer choise at release.
Im sure all those guys are struggeling.
I already told you im not reading for builds, and im play on Solo Self Found, but you seem to think i would brag on an anon forum .