Please convince me RMT is objectively bad for the game (rage abstain)

[lebeststratege]

The more I think about it, the less I see any problem with RMT, here are my thoughts, pls respond with argument, although your opinion is of value, it won't convince me.

PoE is mostly a solo game with interaction through the trade market. There is no competitive scene regarding it, so any external advantage if of absolutely no importance or relevance (including use of bot, it's up to you if you want to spend money for your computer to have fun instead of you).

The game possess a free market as a whole, where prices are relative to supply and demand and is based around several currencies (here it's ex * 110 = divine (more or less) and divine 460 = mirror (more or less)). Items are also tiered accordong to perceived value (fluctuating around what's strong and what's fun to play).
PoE is void of microtransaction impacting gameplay (which is great and prevent incentives of difficulty fixing that we see on other "AAA" companies).

On top of that comes RMT. Which allow people who play a LOT to interface with those who have money to spare. It also allows many player to live of the game in exchange for their intensive farm (so they trade their time for money... how is that different from babysitting?). I'd go further by saying that those farmer regularly come across stuff they sell for ingame currencies (which they sell to whales, which often spend it back to them buying items).
People who make money often work a lot, and want to entertain themselves, meaning they wouldn't play (as long) if RMT didn't exist, and RMT sellers wouldn't be able to play as much either (that have to make a living to). Overall the game would be less active and the market would shrink, item would cost more because of that making progress harder.
People buying RMT are often those spending money for cosmetics, giving the devs money for their work... and allowing them NOT to implement pay-to-win.

And all of that happens whether a free player buy RMT or not, meaning they enjoy the benefits of a bigger market, it didn't take anything from THEIR fun playing the game.

Of course there are issues with the legality and the tracking of the money (tax and stuff), but that's not a concern for the game itself.

[donut32]

RMT is bad because you have to sift through a trillion bots trying to scam you when trying to trade.

that said i wouldnt care at all if everyone except me cheated, if there was an AH and i never had to deal with any of them ever again directly.

[Nyaruko]

Publicado originalmente por Dark_Embers:

poe has a player driven market, RMT ruins the market for everyone.

RMT is a bannable offence and should result in perma bans

ok snowflake

[DirtyMick]

Alright, so you've got this video game that's built around getting stronger off of gear that drops and you craft. You play, you get gear, dopamine hit, fun. You play more to get that next exciting drop or more currency that you know will make you stronger. It keeps you coming back. Can't wait to play your guy tomorrow after you equipped that new piece of gear you got. Its gonna feel so strong. And then you'll be able to play the next tier up, where drops will be even better and more numerous. ♥♥♥♥ ya, cant wait to get on next. Thats the game you got. It could last you hundreds of hours of feeling excited to play.

OR

You log onto some site where you can skip all of that entirely, to spend some real money on the best gear you could ever dream of dropping. Now you log on, you kill some ♥♥♥♥, nothing better is dropping. You keep going for a bit, but suddenly you realize that there's nothing you're working towards. You're just killing for fun. There's no goal, no progression. Sure, it's fun for a little while, but you start to feel bored pretty soon. You don't even feel like logging on the next today because what's the point? You've done the hardest content. There is no reward. There's nothing that you're hoping for anymore. Okay, done with game.

[1sp33d]

Curious opening - 'Convince me... although your opinion is of value, it won't convince me'. Now that's... special. Just as well I'm not particularly interested in convincing you, but you seem to have not noticed that p2w is not good for games (as far as the players, gameplay, and game design are concerned) for numerous reasons, and what you're advocating for is essentially not only a particularly goofy form of p2w, but it wouldn't even be directly controlled by the devs/publishers which is completely not in their financial interest. Rather the opposite, which is potentially part of why it's against TOS. Personally, I hope that anyone who RMTs or does a Musk gets permabanned to the fullest extent.

[Revilar]

Publicado originalmente por lebeststratege:

Publicado originalmente por Flargo:

By bringing real world value to some silly ingame digital things and creating army of bots and exploiters looking to farm as many as possible to sell drowning the economy and rising prices of the in game market to such heights that normal players will never be able to afford anything with time.

Proven in many different games like Wow classic, Archeage, and basically any korean game that released outside of Korea (cuz in Korea number of accounts are limited cuz they are tied to social security number)

anyone not playing for thousand hours have no chance of buying a 1 in 100 billion item.

...unless they buy currency with real world money. And you know what? That's RMT. And you know what happens if people buy these expensive items with RMT obtained currency? The market gets inflated to such ridiculous levels that people who don't buy currency from outside sources can't even interact with the market because they can't afford anything with what they've earned from playing the game.

[RawMeatDiet]

> PoE is mostly a solo game

About as solo as a modern MMO. Farm solo, then sell to global market. Botting is also popular in MMOs and is bannable.

[Dwane Dibbley]

Publicado originalmente por RawMeatDiet:

> PoE is mostly a solo game

About as solo as a modern MMO. Farm solo, then sell to global market. Botting is also popular in MMOs and is bannable.

Man, look at WoW. Blizzard actualy decided to just leech on bots rather than fighting them. Not a good example.

[dynatierchen]

you ask for others to convince u in the title

and then in the first sentence you tell everybody no matter what it is it wont convince you ?! XDDD

stopped reading at that point

[PaperLiger]

Somehow I feel like if it was officially implimented a lot of yall would be complaining p2w

[Fluffy Bunny of Despair]

Publicado originalmente por PaperLiger:

Somehow I feel like if it was officially implimented a lot of yall would be complaining p2w

ofc its literally p2w after all ^^

[Drosta]

The answer is pretty simple in every game that allows RMT, or doesn't allow it but it exists anyway. When. You engage in RMT you're paying to not play the game. Paying to skip content, gear grind, etc. all you're doing is removing any reason for yourself to actually play it. You can Elon's maps your way to "victory" if you wish but you're not actually playing the game and will be done with it in a few hours instead of hundreds or thousands. Not a good value imo but you do you.

[lebeststratege]

Publicado originalmente por Drosta:

The answer is pretty simple in every game that allows RMT, or doesn't allow it but it exists anyway. When. You engage in RMT you're paying to not play the game. Paying to skip content, gear grind, etc. all you're doing is removing any reason for yourself to actually play it. You can Elon's maps your way to "victory" if you wish but you're not actually playing the game and will be done with it in a few hours instead of hundreds or thousands. Not a good value imo but you do you.

I agree with what you say, although it hardly means it's bad "for the game" rather it is bad "for the one who use it". Same as cigarette, drugs, alcool, etc..

I personnaly stumbled upon another problem which is saddly only solved through RMTs right now : I chose the wrong ascendency, but it didn't become clear for me until 80 hours in my char (mainly because I overestimated the value of my points 5 to 8). And if I'd want to test the same build I play with the other it would take me a good 30 hours to reach a moment where comparison can be made. Sure it's not "RMTs are good in themselves" argument, because it could be solved by the devs... by indirectly, RMTs also show what is VALUED by people and skipping story to direct access maps is one of them.

[Drosta]

Publicado originalmente por lebeststratege:

Publicado originalmente por Drosta:

The answer is pretty simple in every game that allows RMT, or doesn't allow it but it exists anyway. When. You engage in RMT you're paying to not play the game. Paying to skip content, gear grind, etc. all you're doing is removing any reason for yourself to actually play it. You can Elon's maps your way to "victory" if you wish but you're not actually playing the game and will be done with it in a few hours instead of hundreds or thousands. Not a good value imo but you do you.

I agree with what you say, although it hardly means it's bad "for the game" rather it is bad "for the one who use it". Same as cigarette, drugs, alcool, etc..

I personnaly stumbled upon another problem which is saddly only solved through RMTs right now : I chose the wrong ascendency, but it didn't become clear for me until 80 hours in my char (mainly because I overestimated the value of my points 5 to 8). And if I'd want to test the same build I play with the other it would take me a good 30 hours to reach a moment where comparison can be made. Sure it's not "RMTs are good in themselves" argument, because it could be solved by the devs... by indirectly, RMTs also show what is VALUED by people and skipping story to direct access maps is one of them.

Sure but one can easily argue that drugs, alcohol, cigarettes etc are also bad for the society as a whole. Burden on the healthcare system, poverty, crime etc. And I think there's similar arguments to be made for a gaming community. Other comments already touched on it a bit so I won't repeat what they said but one thing Jonathan said in a pre release interview is relevant to all of this. Basically "we have to be careful what types of systems like this we put into the game so that we don't end up with a situation where we're asking ourselves is it good for the store? More often than is it good for the game?" I'm paraphrasing a bit but that's basically what he said and was one of the reasons I bought the game. Because he's absolutely right and you can see the effect of this corporate level concern all over the gaming industry. The game is also not strictly a solo experience. Even SSF characters can be migrated to normal now, which I personally think is a mistake on their part, but one example of the effect on the community is market pricing which is inflated significantly by RMT. It also makes RMT a pay to win good investment. If for example, I went ahead and paid $500 for a bunch of best in slot items I could then use that character for weeks, months, or longer to farm currency and drops from content trivialized by the power creep. And then flood the market with my items and currency. ... Actually maybe that's a good idea..

But yeah. It's bad for everyone, not just you. Lol

[DELAMAIN]

Services and live currency trade in game KILLS GAME.

they should remove TOTALLY trade beetween players.
Keep only stash which will work like Currency exchange now.

No trade and web sites -> no abuse -> no grind-> no bots -> no dupes etc.


Services and trade killed WoW.
Great example

[RawMeatDiet]

Publicado originalmente por DELAMAIN:

Services and live currency trade in game KILLS GAME.

they should remove TOTALLY trade beetween players.
Keep only stash which will work like Currency exchange now.

No trade and web sites -> no abuse -> no grind-> no bots -> no dupes etc.


Services and trade killed WoW.
Great example

Ok but if there is no trade then this game is almost completely singleplayer and then has no reason to be an online game. POE is a semi-MMO due to trading economy.

I also play POE because of trade and wouldn't play it just like I don't play any single player ARPGs.