Please convince me RMT is objectively bad for the game (rage abstain)

[lebeststratege]

The more I think about it, the less I see any problem with RMT, here are my thoughts, pls respond with argument, although your opinion is of value, it won't convince me.

PoE is mostly a solo game with interaction through the trade market. There is no competitive scene regarding it, so any external advantage if of absolutely no importance or relevance (including use of bot, it's up to you if you want to spend money for your computer to have fun instead of you).

The game possess a free market as a whole, where prices are relative to supply and demand and is based around several currencies (here it's ex * 110 = divine (more or less) and divine 460 = mirror (more or less)). Items are also tiered accordong to perceived value (fluctuating around what's strong and what's fun to play).
PoE is void of microtransaction impacting gameplay (which is great and prevent incentives of difficulty fixing that we see on other "AAA" companies).

On top of that comes RMT. Which allow people who play a LOT to interface with those who have money to spare. It also allows many player to live of the game in exchange for their intensive farm (so they trade their time for money... how is that different from babysitting?). I'd go further by saying that those farmer regularly come across stuff they sell for ingame currencies (which they sell to whales, which often spend it back to them buying items).
People who make money often work a lot, and want to entertain themselves, meaning they wouldn't play (as long) if RMT didn't exist, and RMT sellers wouldn't be able to play as much either (that have to make a living to). Overall the game would be less active and the market would shrink, item would cost more because of that making progress harder.
People buying RMT are often those spending money for cosmetics, giving the devs money for their work... and allowing them NOT to implement pay-to-win.

And all of that happens whether a free player buy RMT or not, meaning they enjoy the benefits of a bigger market, it didn't take anything from THEIR fun playing the game.

Of course there are issues with the legality and the tracking of the money (tax and stuff), but that's not a concern for the game itself.

[fx!]

RMT means real money trading. You should learn from history why RMT doesn't have a positive impact whatsoever, there are plenty of examples already mentioned. Argument of popularity through RMT is also flawed because more people would avoid the game than how many new "RMTers" it would attract, who will also leave the game pretty quickly when they get bored.

Origineel geplaatst door lebeststratege:

On top of that comes RMT. Which allow people who play a LOT to interface with those who have money to spare. It also allows many player to live of the game in exchange for their intensive farm (so they trade their time for money... how is that different from babysitting?)

That is no different from a job. These people will choose games, which are most profitable and will often break ToS in other areas for example using unauthorised 3rd party tools aka botting. Nothing positive about that either.

Origineel geplaatst door lebeststratege:

People buying RMT are often those spending money for cosmetics, giving the devs money for their work... and allowing them NOT to implement pay-to-win.

I'd say RMTers will target player power first instead of cosmetics, which will also be more lucrative to the people mentioned above. The consequence is exactly opposite, it introduces pay to win channel immediately when RMT is allowed.

[lebeststratege]

Origineel geplaatst door Licher.Rus:

Origineel geplaatst door lebeststratege:

Poe 2 peak players : 578562 (current player is 142 903 which is more than the peak of the others)

Most of them are working at black RMT market
or bots
The amount of real players are pretty visible when looking at market and low-end items and this part of market is currently completely dead.
You will be able to understand that with more experience

I don't look for the low tier tiem because... I play T15 maps?
I agree that there not a big influx of regular player but I put thing on sell regularly and sell them, as well as buy stuff. I don't think it's that strange in a 1 month old EA game (which is still 2/3 population of PoE 1 PEAK btw. If the game had full class released I would probably reroll another char, but right now, and with Armour in this state, I'd rather keep playing where I progress (easier than in PoE 1 at that).

@Simon
sorry not to answer you directly : I don't know, that's the reason of my thread.

Also, from what I can see, the main problem is less RMT and more labor so cheap in the form of bots that's it overinflate the economy (as every time there is dirt cheap labor).

[Tkon]

As of now the point's might be valid for now and the near future.

But in future features might be introduced and it might be a problem then.
In general I've no issue with RMT, some people have less time than others and when these players are able and willing to pay money to catch up I do not see a problem in general.
If I would be GGG I would offer RMT services on my own.

A potential issue just pop up in a scenario where you have to spend real money to achive certain goals. That for sure should be a no go.

[This PC]

The thing RMT does is give people like you an excuse to not learn the game, and give RMT'ers more reasons to manipulate market and bot and such. If you don't have time to play PoE, then don't. x_x

The RMT problem isn't a supply one, it's a demand one.
It will stop when people stop buying currency.
There's no company in the world that can stop people from responding to a demand, where there's money to be made, people will step in, no matter how hard you try to stop it.

[lebeststratege]

Origineel geplaatst door fx!:

RMT means real money trading. You should learn from history why RMT doesn't have a positive impact whatsoever, there are plenty of examples already mentioned. Argument of popularity through RMT is also flawed because more people would avoid the game than how many new "RMTers" it would attract, who will also leave the game pretty quickly when they get bored.

I don't intend to make the game popular through RMT. I'm saying RMT will exist because time is more limited than money for people willing to buy, and the opposite for people willing to sell. RMTs could be regulated by an official party.. same as IRL.

Origineel geplaatst door fx!:

That is no different from a job. These people will choose games, which are most profitable and will often break ToS in other areas for example using unauthorised 3rd party tools aka botting. Nothing positive about that either.

Agreed, but job creation is hardly a bad thing in my book. (Exploitation is, and in capitalism the marging if often thin)

Origineel geplaatst door fx!:

I'd say RMTers will target player power first instead of cosmetics, which will also be more lucrative to the people mentioned above. The consequence is exactly opposite, it introduces pay to win channel immediately when RMT is allowed.

Also agreed, but in this game, what IS THERE to win ? (I had an argument about leaderboard which is fair... but what else?).

[♥BlackSun♥]

if ppls woul do play 2 earn, then everyone would play nft games and not this. these are not legit sources , it's not like ppls farm stuff then sell them for cash (well some do) but these things mostly come either from exploiting game and hacking or bot farms running 24/7.

just look at eve online, fully player run economy that make some of them irl millionares cuz they just sold in game currency for real cash.

[This PC]

There's nothing to win from buying currency, winning in PoE is understanding how to farm that currency and use it. There is no end goal to PoE. It's not competitive, there's nothing to win. It's kinda like an arpg sandbox. If you buy currency, you are harming yourself, stepping directly to the end, and then people come here on the forums saying there's nothing to do and game is boring. :P

The game is about getting to where you'd get that gear you bought with RMT without RMT. Can take thousand hours to fully understand how to, but once you do, you realize how much RMT'ing is pointless rofl, and you just blaze through the game.

[lebeststratege]

Origineel geplaatst door This PC:

The thing RMT does is give people like you an excuse to not learn the game, and give RMT'ers more reasons to manipulate market and bot and such. If you don't have time to play PoE, then don't. x_x

Like me? I don't RMT, and I learn the game. Aside from the personal attack, why does it bother you if some people are scamed out of their money because of their own "greed" (for fun) and "incompetence" (in the game), because they spend their attention span on making IRL money? If I was doing millions of € yearly I would whale as f, because that would be a breather in my 70 hours week (but I don't)...

Origineel geplaatst door This PC:

The RMT problem isn't a supply one, it's a demand one.
It will stop when people stop buying currency.
There's no company in the world that can stop people from responding to a demand, where there's money to be made, people will step in, no matter how hard you try to stop it.

And there is demand because ... the game is good and time is limited? you answer is to go travel to relativist speed in order to extend the time to have more time to play? get serous...

[Fluffy Bunny of Despair]

A lot of the charm that games bring to me is that everyone starts on equal footing.
You can only get forward through your own work.

Skipping that by simply buying currency via RMT would rob a lot of people of that feeling.
Which in my opinion is a big downside.

Additionally its forbidden through the terms of service.
Its gggs game hence they make the rules.

Pay 2 win in gernal is disregareded as something negative because its destroys the feeling of "look at the hard work i put into xyz to achieve xyz" when people can just buy it.

It harms games and games with a lot of p2w have shown that. Specially in the western market they are not exactly welcome since people here just dislike it.

[lebeststratege]

Origineel geplaatst door This PC:

There's nothing to win from buying currency, winning in PoE is understanding how to farm that currency and use it. There is no end goal to PoE. It's not competitive, there's nothing to win. It's kinda like an arpg sandbox. If you buy currency, you are harming yourself, stepping directly to the end, and then people come here on the forums saying there's nothing to do and game is boring. :P

The game is about getting to where you'd get that gear you bought with RMT without RMT. Can take thousand hours to fully understand how to, but once you do, you realize how much RMT'ing is pointless rofl, and you just blaze through the game.

That's one way to view the game (and I agree because I mostly view it the same way), but you also leave aside the people who play:
for the fun of it
for the story (I know some)
to rest their brain killing stuff
to play with there friends

There are multiple ways to enjoy PoE, and RMT doesn't come across many of them.

[This PC]

Origineel geplaatst door lebeststratege:

And there is demand because ... the game is good and time is limited? you answer is to go travel to relativist speed in order to extend the time to have more time to play? get serous...

What's the problem with that ? If your time is limited, don't engage in a game that requires time to master and properly enjoy ? Lots of good game take time to master, chess probably being the prime example. It's okay to suck at chess and still enjoy it, just like it's okay to suck at PoE and still enjoy it. You don't need BiS gear to enjoy poe. You don't even need to do maps at all. :P

[This PC]

Origineel geplaatst door lebeststratege:

for the fun of it

What if I told you the fun of it is figuring out how it ticks, not beating it ?
This comes from someone that has played PoE 14 years. :P

Origineel geplaatst door lebeststratege:

for the story (I know some)

You really really really really don't need anything more than what you loot for the story.

Origineel geplaatst door lebeststratege:

to rest their brain killing stuff

They can do tier 5 maps instead of doing tier 15 maps. :P
You're still gonna loot stuff, and you'll have a much more relaxed time.

Origineel geplaatst door lebeststratege:

to play with there friends

Am playing with 8 newbie friends.
None of them have any problems blazing through the game, they just need a little bit of guidance.

Origineel geplaatst door lebeststratege:

There are multiple ways to enjoy PoE, and RMT doesn't come across many of them.

RMT breaks the #1 thing on PoE: The market. ;P
RMTer sells you currency > you buy unique from RMT'er > they sell that currency to another... etc...
The more you buy RMT, the more you incentive RMT'ers to price fix, manipulate market, bot and such. And then, probably the same people who RMT complain about the market and bots. :P

[Tkon]

Origineel geplaatst door This PC:

Origineel geplaatst door lebeststratege:

And there is demand because ... the game is good and time is limited? you answer is to go travel to relativist speed in order to extend the time to have more time to play? get serous...

What's the problem with that ? If your time is limited, don't engage in a game that requires time to master and properly enjoy ? Lots of good game take time to master, chess probably being the prime example. It's okay to suck at chess and still enjoy it, just like it's okay to suck at PoE and still enjoy it. You don't need BiS gear to enjoy poe. You don't even need to do maps at all. :P

Have the need for something or having something isn't the same. :) Haveing something is better than needing something.

[This PC]

Origineel geplaatst door Tkon:

Have the need for something or having something isn't the same. :) Haveing something is better than needing something.

am not sure I understand your point

[fx!]

Origineel geplaatst door lebeststratege:

Origineel geplaatst door fx!:

I'd say RMTers will target player power first instead of cosmetics, which will also be more lucrative to the people mentioned above. The consequence is exactly opposite, it introduces pay to win channel immediately when RMT is allowed.

Also agreed, but in this game, what IS THERE to win ? (I had an argument about leaderboard which is fair... but what else?).

Bragging rights probably, case in point emusk with the pr stunt. Look at whole poe's TFT community and how they see ingame wealth as a status of prestige, there are many people like that.