Please convince me RMT is objectively bad for the game (rage abstain)

[lebeststratege]

The more I think about it, the less I see any problem with RMT, here are my thoughts, pls respond with argument, although your opinion is of value, it won't convince me.

PoE is mostly a solo game with interaction through the trade market. There is no competitive scene regarding it, so any external advantage if of absolutely no importance or relevance (including use of bot, it's up to you if you want to spend money for your computer to have fun instead of you).

The game possess a free market as a whole, where prices are relative to supply and demand and is based around several currencies (here it's ex * 110 = divine (more or less) and divine 460 = mirror (more or less)). Items are also tiered accordong to perceived value (fluctuating around what's strong and what's fun to play).
PoE is void of microtransaction impacting gameplay (which is great and prevent incentives of difficulty fixing that we see on other "AAA" companies).

On top of that comes RMT. Which allow people who play a LOT to interface with those who have money to spare. It also allows many player to live of the game in exchange for their intensive farm (so they trade their time for money... how is that different from babysitting?). I'd go further by saying that those farmer regularly come across stuff they sell for ingame currencies (which they sell to whales, which often spend it back to them buying items).
People who make money often work a lot, and want to entertain themselves, meaning they wouldn't play (as long) if RMT didn't exist, and RMT sellers wouldn't be able to play as much either (that have to make a living to). Overall the game would be less active and the market would shrink, item would cost more because of that making progress harder.
People buying RMT are often those spending money for cosmetics, giving the devs money for their work... and allowing them NOT to implement pay-to-win.

And all of that happens whether a free player buy RMT or not, meaning they enjoy the benefits of a bigger market, it didn't take anything from THEIR fun playing the game.

Of course there are issues with the legality and the tracking of the money (tax and stuff), but that's not a concern for the game itself.

[Vespertellino]

why

[Dark_Embers]

poe has a player driven market, RMT ruins the market for everyone.

RMT is a bannable offence and should result in perma bans

[lebeststratege]

Originally posted by Dark_Embers:

poe has a player driven market, RMT ruins the market for everyone.

RMT is a bannable offence and should result in perma bans

HOW do it ruins the market?
by bringing more buyers and sellers?
Would RMT sellers be able to play if RMT didn't exist? yet they sell items on the market.

[Flargo]

By bringing real world value to some silly ingame digital things and creating army of bots and exploiters looking to farm as many as possible to sell drowning the economy and rising prices of the in game market to such heights that normal players will never be able to afford anything with time.

Proven in many different games like Wow classic, Archeage, and basically any korean game that released outside of Korea (cuz in Korea number of accounts are limited cuz they are tied to social security number)

[DaveDecay]

Originally posted by lebeststratege:

Please convince me RMT is objectively bad for the game (rage abstain)
The more I think about it, the less I see any problem with RMT, here are my thoughts, pls respond with argument, although your opinion is of value, it won't convince me..

So first you ask people to convince you, and then you proceed to say that nothing will change your mind?!?!?!?!

Yeah, you sound like a reasonable person.

[Licher.Rus]

RMT is bad for players - it devalues low-end items, so nobody want to bother with them. It overvalues mid-end items, which starts to cost as truck. And it insanely overvaluse high-end items.

But developers support haveing RMT in their game

How?

Simple: by adding extremely powerful yet very rare items, which could absolutely change your gameplay from 'manageable' to 'eazy-peasy'

Till this wont be changed - there will be RMT.

It is the whole black market around POE1, where people having thousands of dollars profits at the start of every League.

Same will be in the POE2.

P.S. And not, they aint working hard - bots do

[lebeststratege]

Originally posted by Flargo:

By bringing real world value to some silly ingame digital things and creating army of bots and exploiters looking to farm as many as possible to sell drowning the economy and rising prices of the in game market to such heights that normal players will never be able to afford anything with time.

Proven in many different games like Wow classic, Archeage, and basically any korean game that released outside of Korea (cuz in Korea number of accounts are limited cuz they are tied to social security number)

Expect that's not what PoE demonstrate :
farmers exist true, probably bots too (not sure). But the economy is reliant on the rarity of the topest tier item which have astronomicaly low odds of drop to begin with. anyone not playing for thousand hours have no chance of buying a 1 in 100 billion item.
contrary to Mmos where resources are limited (on the map mining spot are limited etc..) PoE have no such limits, so bots... I don't interact with them.

[lebeststratege]

Originally posted by DaveDecay:

Originally posted by lebeststratege:

Please convince me RMT is objectively bad for the game (rage abstain)
The more I think about it, the less I see any problem with RMT, here are my thoughts, pls respond with argument, although your opinion is of value, it won't convince me..

So first you ask people to convince you, and then you proceed to say that nothing will change your mind?!?!?!?!

Yeah, you sound like a reasonable person.

Opinion not supported by argument won't convince me (saying "it's bad" have no value to me, bringing arguments can sway my PoV)

[lebeststratege]

Originally posted by Licher.Rus:

RMT is bad for players

But developers support haveing RMT in their game

How?

Simple: by adding extremely powerful yet very rare items, which could absolutely change your gameplay from 'manageable' to 'eazy-peasy'

Till this wont be changed - there will be RMT.

It is the whole black market around POE1, where people having thousands of dollars profits at the start of every League.

Same will be in the POE2.

P.S. And not, they aint working hard - bots do

PoE is based on the feeling/dopamine release that you CAN drop such item by yourself if your luck is there (yeah that's also how casino works), I fail to see how that's really different from any looter game. Besides if you play, chances are you looted pieces of really good equipement yourself that changed how you feel the game.

I don't know if you wished the game was less random so that you'd drop a maxed out char quickly (leading many player to never play the game pretty fast) or if you wish the game was easier (leading to an absence of challenge... leading players to leave the game)

[Flargo]

Originally posted by lebeststratege:

Originally posted by Flargo:

By bringing real world value to some silly ingame digital things and creating army of bots and exploiters looking to farm as many as possible to sell drowning the economy and rising prices of the in game market to such heights that normal players will never be able to afford anything with time.

Proven in many different games like Wow classic, Archeage, and basically any korean game that released outside of Korea (cuz in Korea number of accounts are limited cuz they are tied to social security number)

Expect that's not what PoE demonstrate :
farmers exist true, probably bots too (not sure). But the economy is reliant on the rarity of the topest tier item which have astronomicaly low odds of drop to begin with. anyone not playing for thousand hours have no chance of buying a 1 in 100 billion item.
contrary to Mmos where resources are limited (on the map mining spot are limited etc..) PoE have no such limits, so bots... I don't interact with them.

I wouldn't say so, because the economy right now is double broken thanks to dupes and everyone and their mothers creating spark farm builds, raising basic items for those builds costing more than a few divs. ES shield/mana/magic find items are super expensive. Everything costing divs is insane. There are ways to counteract that as a normal player by farming some items whose worth grows with a bloated economy, like citadel fragments, and selling them, but even then when I see one of the three divs that dropped for me, I don't really see 1/10 of the worth I should.

When a currency item that is super rare and is supposed to feel amazing feels like a random exalt drop, the economy is really ♥♥♥♥♥♥.

[Hallucinating Honey Badger]

There are leaderboards are paying money can get you on the ladder

[Paroe]

RMT creates a two tier market system that artificially inflates the value of currency, making it much harder for the poor to make money and much easier for the rich to make money.

What should be a 1e rare with mid roll stats is currently 15e. What should be a 1d jewel is currently a whopping 28d jewel.
Meta equipment of low rolls is going for the tens of div.
While this means its "accessible" to the people already making money, as price increases and the overall cost of stuff is warped over time it creates, and furthers, a wealth gap required to even remotely get deeper into the game and start considering major upgrades. For a normal player who doesnt think about maps in CPM and VPH It can sometimes be impossible to just _get_ endgame viable upgrades let alone start getting effective gear.

I still firmly beleive that GGG should allow us to deterministically craft using gold and currency (similarly to crafting via recipes in the first game, but much more expanded and capable of going line-by-line) but the top end of any and all rolls like that is maybe 60 or 75%; Creating a secondary market that is easily obtainable and cheap. Give them all the "forged" prefix, too, so people cant cheat.

[lebeststratege]

Originally posted by Hallucinating Honey Badger:

There are leaderboards are paying money can get you on the ladder

Oh yeah, that's true.
Although I personaly don't care about them (hence why forgot about them) I can understand it can matter for some people, especially those spending a lot of time on the game.
Although I must admit those kind of bragging rights lose their appeal to me since I became an adult. your point is totally valid.

[simon]

Simple it causes inflation and destroys the economy. It also incourages crime when enough profit is to be made. It's used to launder money which is tied to gangs who deal in drugs and traffic other humans.

[lebeststratege]

Originally posted by Paroe:

RMT creates a two tier market system that artificially inflates the value of currency, making it much harder for the poor to make money and much easier for the rich to make money.

What should be a 1e rare with mid roll stats is currently 15e. What should be a 1d jewel is currently a whopping 28d jewel.
Meta equipment of low rolls is going for the tens of div.
While this means its "accessible" to the people already making money, as price increases and the overall cost of stuff is warped over time it creates, and furthers, a wealth gap required to even remotely get deeper into the game and start considering major upgrades. For a normal player who doesnt think about maps in CPM and VPH It can sometimes be impossible to just _get_ endgame viable upgrades let alone start getting effective gear.

I still firmly beleive that GGG should allow us to deterministically craft using gold and currency (similarly to crafting via recipes in the first game, but much more expanded and capable of going line-by-line) but the top end of any and all rolls like that is maybe 60 or 75%; Creating a secondary market that is easily obtainable and cheap. Give them all the "forged" prefix, too, so people cant cheat.

Interesting points here too.
although It's contrary to what I personnaly felt :
A lot of rare are worth 1ex as budget but are strong enough for me to go farm the needed 15 ex to tier up, and then the 1d to tier again => I agree with you it creates more tier, but to me it made the progression smoother, not harder, due to supply being high, and enough money in the market for it to swing around. That's the sign of a bigger market, not a bad one to me.

Does it make the game harder for "newbies" ? sure, but that's also a side effect of any free market (skill in recognisis a good stuff is valued). I also agree with you that gold should have more uses.