Why is it only the aRPG genre that wants to cannablize itself?

[Mike]

So I'm a huge aRPG fan that enjoys all kinds whether its the indie offerings (Rum and gun, Ghostlore,...etc), the AA offerings (Titan Quest, Grim Dawn, Torchlight 1-2, Chaosbane, Inquisitor Martyr,..etc), and the more classic offerings (Sacred 1-2, D2, Dungeon Seige 1-2,...etc).

My question to the modern aRPG player base (especially POE fans) is why does the aRPG genre want to cannibalize itself where there is only one "king" and all others are not worth playing? This mentality took precedent when POE got popular where it was always POE > everything else or even Diablo > everything else.

Plenty of other genres like FPS, platformers, metroidvainias, Souls-likes,....etc can all seem to coexist and retain their respective player bases without much issue, but for some reason modern aRPGs have turned into "you either a top dog or your nothing" territory. It also has made players want EVERY aRPG to mold itself to be like the big dogs rather then just trying something unique and on a smaller scale.

In my view it all stems from the much bigger focus on the live service aspects then it use to be. Back in the D2 days it was only ladders and trading, now everything is centered around the live service model and when every game wants to compete for the same live service space there is only so many players that it can pull in without stepping on each others toes.

POE2 looks excellent and its obvious it will be huge but how much will this game hurt smaller titles like Titan Quest 2, Dragonskin: The banished,..etc and others that are not trying to directly compete in the live service space and are going the more traditional route? Will the modern audience understnad that these other games are not trying to be POE? Or will they compare everything to POE2 and everything will fall short of their expectations?

I'm glad POE2 is doing well because it has earned it, but has it shifted then genre to the point anything not trying to be like POE is looked upon as being inferior? Food for thought for those who love all types of aRPGs and not just the big AAA ones ;)

[Vespertellino]

Originally posted by Stockwerk 13:

Originally posted by Vespertellino:

just like BG3 is oppressing CRPGs by setting an unrealistic standart of quality

Have you played Pathfinder: Wrath of the righteous?

Everyone i know that played both says Pathfinder WOTR is way better than BG3.

BG3 is the diablo 4 of cRPGS imo.
While WOTR is the real crack for nerds.

I didn't! I didn't finish BG3 either tbh
I find Pathfinder unappealing after I tried WH40K Rogue Trader, I heard they're pretty similar
It's not about which game is bettter though, it's about the sentiment in the public that they invoke, which was my point

[MeatBag]

Originally posted by Mike:

So I'm a huge aRPG fan that enjoys all kinds whether its the indie offerings (Rum and gun, Ghostlore,...etc), the AA offerings (Titan Quest, Grim Dawn, Torchlight 1-2, Chaosbane, Inquisitor Martyr,..etc), and the more classic offerings (Sacred 1-2, D2, Dungeon Seige 1-2,...etc).

My question to the modern aRPG player base (especially POE fans) is why does the aRPG genre want to cannibalize itself where there is only one "king" and all others are not worth playing? This mentality took precedent when POE got popular where it was always POE > everything else or even Diablo > everything else.

Plenty of other genres like FPS, platformers, metroidvainias, Souls-likes,....etc can all seem to coexist and retain their respective player bases without much issue, but for some reason modern aRPGs have turned into "you either a top dog or your nothing" territory. It also has made players want EVERY aRPG to mold itself to be like the big dogs rather then just trying something unique and on a smaller scale.

In my view it all stems from the much bigger focus on the live service aspects then it use to be. Back in the D2 days it was only ladders and trading, now everything is centered around the live service model and when every game wants to compete for the same live service space there is only so many players that it can pull in without stepping on each others toes.

POE2 looks excellent and its obvious it will be huge but how much will this game hurt smaller titles like Titan Quest 2, Dragonskin: The banished,..etc and others that are not trying to directly compete in the live service space and are going the more traditional route? Will the modern audience understnad that these other games are not trying to be POE? Or will they compare everything to POE2 and everything will fall short of their expectations?

I'm glad POE2 is doing well because it has earned it, but has it shifted then genre to the point anything not trying to be like POE is looked upon as being inferior? Food for thought for those who love all types of aRPGs and not just the big AAA ones ;)

PoE is best arpg for a lot of people,
D4 is worst arpg for a lot of people.
Most of poe players have no problems with other arpgs aside of D4, because D4 bad.
A lot of poe players play other arpgs between poe leagues, usually Lost Ark, Torchlight Infinite, Grim Dawn, etc.
A lot of poe players do recommend those games, they not like good enough to be main game for those people, but enough to play it times to times.

[Vespertellino]

Originally posted by Mike:

Originally posted by Vespertellino:

That's because just a decent small arpg doesn't cut it for obvious reasons
The genre is about cool thoughtful builds and item interactions, fun boss mechanics and whatnot

If you want a short arpg-like experience, roguelites like Curse of the Dead Gods is where it's at, but they're a different genre

LOL I don't want "short arpg-like experiences" I want more traditional aRPGs, that are not thrown under the buss by the big liver service leviathans. The aRPG genre is much more then endless proceduarl endgame/mapping systems, and it use to have more focus on a long (highly replayable) story campaigns, tons of builds, NG+ modes,...etc but no one seems to appreciate that type of aRPG anymore.

I have thousands of hours across multiple aRPGs and even with its lack of procedual levels, there is so much content to do, and so many builds to make. There are small aRPGs that you can sink just as much time into with build variety, itemization,...etc its just most smaller aRPGs are co-op/single player and not live service, so modern playes are missing out on the Zeitgeist of the next big thing.

So what are you blaming the gamers and those who like poe specifically for, again?

[Vespertellino]

Also who are these "modern players" you are referring to all the time?
Because I'm sure at least 80% of poe's playerbase are neckbeards in their late 30s - early 40s

[Stockwerk 13]

Originally posted by MeatBag:

PoE is best arpg for a lot of people,
D4 is worst arpg for a lot of people.

your talking about the vocal minorites...which is neckbeard gamers like you and me who talk games in some forums.

diablo 4 porpably still has at least a million of players who are dads with 2 kids who u will never talk on the internet.

[Idlemind]

Originally posted by Vespertellino:

Also who are these "modern players" you are referring to all the time?
Because I'm sure at least 80% of poe's playerbase are neckbeards in their late 30s - early 40s

Haha can confirm,

[Mike]

Originally posted by ex_IllusionisT:

It's time and money. Nothing else.
The moment we start introducing player equity in games just for the sake of giving all games even chances is the time when gaming dies for good, and there will no longer be a larger budget games.

I agree I don't want "player-equity" I just would like aRPGs players to maybe go outside of their POE/Diablo bubble and actually see what more the genre actually has to offer both in terms of AA and indie.

This is coming form a person who respects that GGG was able to do with POE1-2 and even if it gets hate I see some aspects of D4 that I would like.

[Vespertellino]

Originally posted by Mike:

Originally posted by ex_IllusionisT:

It's time and money. Nothing else.
The moment we start introducing player equity in games just for the sake of giving all games even chances is the time when gaming dies for good, and there will no longer be a larger budget games.

I agree I don't want "player-equity" I just would like aRPGs players to maybe go outside of their POE/Diablo bubble and actually see what more the genre actually has to offer both in terms of AA and indie.

This is coming form a person who respects that GGG was able to do with POE1-2 and even if it gets hate I see some aspects of D4 that I would like.

And why do you think they aren't? Those who have the time and money for it at least

[Vespertellino]

You keep blaming players for choosing a free game with superb gameplay, that constantly expands and improves over time, over some sub-par short titles that don't do this genre justice

Like, that's not even a comparison, they should do way better than that to convert players

[Mike]

Originally posted by Vespertellino:

Also who are these "modern players" you are referring to all the time?
Because I'm sure at least 80% of poe's playerbase are neckbeards in their late 30s - early 40s

Hmm when I say modern players I mean the players who are OK with their games being filled with MTX/cosmetics to nickle and dime the player, those who want all games to be live service in nature and have no finite end,..etc.

I use the term Modern because most of the design concepts in POE/D4 are Modern lol. ARPGs did not use to be filled with MTX, they use to be preimuim paid products that had an expansion or 2 to bring in more money for their next projects. aRPGs did not use to be exclusivity live service, yes it was a thing in D2 but most players were solo-offline players realistically. ARPGs did not use to be ONLY about endless endgame systems designed to keep players playing forever, yes aRPGs have been highly addictive but D2 had a finite end, Grim Dawn has a finite end, TQ has a finite end. Once players reached the "end" they would simply re-roll a new character and enjoy that experience again a new way.

So when I say "modern gamers" I mean it in the context of the modern design philosophies that have flooded the gaming industry, whether thats "live service", "MTX", ...etc.

So I'm not really singling out a certain age group, but more so those who have come to accept things that gamers us to take a hard stance against and now its just part of gaming in general.

[Vespertellino]

Lol I see, you're just a confused person

[Vespertellino]

Originally posted by Mike:

aRPGs did not use to be exclusivity live service

It's almost like the genre evolved over time and competition wasn't there

[Googledebunker]

As others have said. It's a prevalent problem due to the popularity of social media, tribalism, and elitism with search algorithms and engagement manipulation by various websites and "influencers"

Influencer Stans in particular are very vocal due to them looking at these influencers as an authority figure in a parasocial relationship.


research suggests that socially isolated people are more likely to experience anger, as social isolation and loneliness can lead to increased feelings of frustration, negativity, and a heightened sensitivity to perceived threats, which can manifest as aggression or irritability; essentially, the lack of positive social interaction can contribute to a more reactive state, making individuals prone to anger outbursts.

When parasocial relationships are used as substitutes for genuine emotional relationships with friends and family it can lead to people being easier to manipulate through influencer marketing tactics.

People that have well adjusted relationships with people they have met in person are less likely to participate in parasocial, and tribalist activities online.

The recommended screen time for adults is 2 hours per day outside of work, and with the normalization of binging screen time for 8+ hours a day on social media can lead to all sorts of negative mental, and physical health conditions.

It's likely to lead to dopamine addiction similar to someone that binges on junk food, their brains keep giving massive doses of feel good chemicals which leads to tolerance build up that the brain and body can't keep up with, which can result in being depressed when it's unable to produce and process the dopamine required to make them feel as good as the first time they played their favorite game, or ate their favorite candy bar, soda or whatever they have overindulged upon.

The brain has neuroplasticity meaning that it can form new neural pathways based on the habits and experiences of a person, and social media has had a noticeable impact based on the further polarization, and tribalism on display across the internet.

In reality there are tons of games that are a lot of fun, and more than enough room for several of them to be fun and successful. This whole idea that if something doesn't instantly sell as good as something else, then it must be a failure is a reductive, and disingenuous.

Play what you want, enjoy what you want, it's all good as long as it's done in moderation.

[Stockwerk 13]

Originally posted by Mike:

aRPGs did not use to be exclusivity live service

diablo 2 pretty much was one of the first live service games to exist

[Mike]

Originally posted by Vespertellino:

You keep blaming players for choosing a free game with superb gameplay, that constantly expands and improves over time, over some sub-par short titles that don't do this genre justice

Like, that's not even a comparison, they should do way better than that to convert players

I did not play aRPGs because they were "FREE" lol, I played them because of their unique approach of character leveling, the power fantasy, and the complexity that goes into really min-maxing your build.

POE 2 has all of that in spades I will happily admit, but I would personally pay 60$ for the full package of POE2, with no MTX shoved into the game, and with future content being paid HUGE expansions that add tons of content and systems to the game.

I will never deny POE2 or 1 are trash games, but its the monitzation systems they are built upon that I have an issue with. I personally feel many of the modern monetization systems spit in the face of things that use to the CORE to aRPGs and now they are relegated to over priced MTX packages.