I heavily dislike having to use a trading site to get gear

[Pixel]

I fully agree with Chris' early trade manifesto and believe instead of making Trading super easy and expose it to tons of abuse they should instead make drops better. I'm hoping this game is nothing like PoE 1 in that regard because as the manifesto says far fewer people engage with that trading system that heavily if still true, and that makes the game too heavily about trade rather than playing the game and getting some upgrades. Haven't seen much said really about trading in PoE 2 cause everything seems to say no one is sure yet how it will play out.

Understand the crafting system is important and the currency market helps a lot with this, the gold system eases things up quite a bit too, but there really needs to be a way to get better drops rather than have so few trading becomes the main part of gear acquisition.

Diablo 3 did this and the drops obviously sucked and was balanced heavily around the real money auction house. I'm sure there were a lot that loved that for obvious reasons, but a game heavily based around trade to get those great items ruins it for me.

This doesn't mean it needs to go the route of very limited trading like D4 or other games and I'm not saying restrict trade. I'm just hoping that philosophy of wanting better and more iterative upgrades over time still applies. Every league there's all these builds that say just go buy these uniques and I'm left wondering how in the world people have dozens of chaos orbs or whatever in the first few hours. But the biggest issue is having to meet up with someone in their hideout or wherever and give them and item in exchange for currency in order to get that build going. This doesn't feel good at all to me. I think you shouldn't have to rely on this to get everything you need, perhaps some things but not everything.

Anyway I'm sure I'll get told to get lost and you all love this clumsy trade system so much. I just think it kills the game for those of us that just want to play, gear up, use crafting to further tweak things, and get an interesting build going.

[DYNIA]

"I heavily dislike having to use a trading site to get gear"

so don't trade

[i_m_bored2death]

Publicado originalmente por SG1_Oneill:

late reply, but making loot better would push things in the direction of D4/D3. If you no life D4, you can find every item in the game. You will crush all content and further minor upgrades to optimize stats are meaningless.

This removes the main thing that keeps most of us playing and thats a significant and meaningful item hunt. Some items you will never find. But because there are so many super valuable finds, when you finally land one, you can trade it for value towards the items you need. In a way trading and currency make it so that you can work towards your ideal setup. In a way that is vastly more satisfying than finding 20 of the same uber unique searching for an optimized roll.

Get real man, item scarcity has nothing to do with trade site. Here is how it works. Some people buy currency off real money sites and then buy the items they need off trade site. Some people farm currency and trade on website where most of the items are put there by bots funneling that currency back into the real money trade sites. Whether it's rare or unique it's still about getting the perfect RNG. They could kill the bots today. If you are farming for good items then why make it harder for bots. Add a limit on how many items you can post on trade site. That would make it harder for bot account and people selling off their super rare items could still sell them off. Here is another idea, how about disenchant takes into account the rolls on the affixes. If you find an item with near maxxed out affixes it disenchants for more resources. And sure it would not take into account the affix itself, but if some affixes are more valuable they should disenchant for more, and you can still sell your perfect drop of afix combinations (although i think with all the data analytics they would even account for affix combinations not just their strength, nvm using common sense crit dmg and trit chance, thats a combo, tripple resistance, that a combo, %fire damage +lvl fire skill that a combo ) on the trade site and people that do not want to get their gear from trade or engage with trade site and would rather get rewarded for playing the game and farming would still have a reason to play the game, instead of being trickled in progression at a slow and even pace. That way you would not have to sell on the site to get value off your super rare drop. How would you like it if items on trade site had a fixed price no matter what stats you have on them? There are stockholders at GGG that are known to run real money websites. You can pretend this is done to keep having a reason to play the game, but it's not. This loot system now is more like diablo immortals than it is D3/D4, D3/D4 loot system would be an improvement. You also like to pretend that no matter how rare the items you will eventually no life it and get that perfect drop. How does buying that perfect drop off trade site change things? Your argument makes no sense. And you ignore all the problem it introduces, nvm perfect drop i would like to get decent gear from ingame crafting and progression and not be funneled into the trading site. Most items are useless you wanna trade on site, crafting is just endless rolls only to sell or de item in the end anyway, the only viable solution is to spend that crafting gear on trade site where the economy is more reasonable, because of bots injecting items into the game. There is nothing about the trade site and how it functions that could not be done in a way that does not work in the favor of RMT players and RMT sites and their bots. They got a guy, 3rd largest stockholder in GGG that runs RMT websites and their excuse was well he advises us on how to better deal with 3rd party website and bots (as an insider into this, like hiring a hacker to help build better anti hacking systems). Not sure what "advice" he has been giving them since the game economy and the trade site could not be more RMT friendly if they tried. It should be clear to anyone with a brain that guy's advice is how to make their gotcha systems more effective to push people into the trade site, and into RMT sites

[king_of_jamaica]

GGG, or more specifically Chris Wilson, hate that you can trade at all, which is why they make it so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ insufferable to do even though it's such an easy problem to solve.

Make an in-game AH, and then make it so either posting an item costs gold increasing with each time that item is traded, or add a cooldown to that item's trades, so people can't just sit there and flip items on the AH.

[Grrrrrrr]

I love trading the way it is

[i_m_bored2death]

Publicado originalmente por king_of_jamaica:

GGG, or more specifically Chris Wilson, hate that you can trade at all, which is why they make it so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ insufferable to do even though it's such an easy problem to solve.

Make an in-game AH, and then make it so either posting an item costs gold increasing with each time that item is traded, or add a cooldown to that item's trades, so people can't just sit there and flip items on the AH.

Well since so many of us are asking for it to be removed entirely, why don't they just do it, Kill the damn trade site then. If they wanted too they could do it today. And then they can balance the game around actual ingame play instead of RMT boosted players. Even easier, make a SSF league with it's own economy balance. But if they did that, they KNOW people would just play that and avoid the trade league all together. Stop being so naive. I've said it before i would pay money, as with any other full priced game to unlock a no trade standard league with it's own economy instead of having balance dictated by RMT players. Can you explain to me why they would not just do that? I know exactly why, it cuts into the profits of their RMT shareholders. people that say well if you don't like it just play SSF, fine balance SSF economy differently than trade league and i will. No skin off their nose, and if they don't like that we can just say just play trade league. Isn't that the same reasoning they use? But ofc who would they flex their RMT built character against then? Just other RMT players?

[i_m_bored2death]

Publicado originalmente por DYNIA:

"I heavily dislike having to use a trading site to get gear"

so don't trade

GGG should give us a SSF league with it's own economy balance (more specifically end game economy) rather than using the same one as trade league, that would be the answer not "just don't trade". And those than don't agree with that can just play trade league and get out of here with their nonsense disingenuous "solutions". How about you just don't comment if you don't like his post. Unlike the game economy no one is forcing you to engage with it

[starbuck310]

Not used trading site - its a choice I dont have to

[FrontenStuermer]

Publicado originalmente por starbuck310:

Not used trading site - its a choice I dont have to

Thats the mainproblem where some didnt understood.
The nearly only and biggest chance to get progress is the tradingcenter.
Loot is absolute useless.
NPC Loot is a very, very low chance.
Trade Center nearly only chance to get armor, weapons etc. for progress.
I agress that this solution is absolut bad and yes some like it but i assume enough dont like it.
I dont like a trading simulator.
Changing this would be really good and bring me back to the game but with this mechanic i dont play this simulator

[i_m_bored2death]

Publicado originalmente por starbuck310:

Not used trading site - its a choice I dont have to

Sure you do, if you wanna progress in endgame. I never traded either and reached a progression black hole at the endgame. Why not give SSF with it's own economy? It's a choice you don't have to play it. Arguments like these are nonsense at best, dismissive at least, and disingenuous and deceptive at worst

[king_of_jamaica]

Publicado originalmente por i_m_bored2death:

Publicado originalmente por king_of_jamaica:

GGG, or more specifically Chris Wilson, hate that you can trade at all, which is why they make it so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ insufferable to do even though it's such an easy problem to solve.

Make an in-game AH, and then make it so either posting an item costs gold increasing with each time that item is traded, or add a cooldown to that item's trades, so people can't just sit there and flip items on the AH.

Well since so many of us are asking for it to be removed entirely, why don't they just do it, Kill the damn trade site then. If they wanted too they could do it today. And then they can balance the game around actual ingame play instead of RMT boosted players. Even easier, make a SSF league with it's own economy balance. But if they did that, they KNOW people would just play that and avoid the trade league all together. Stop being so naive. I've said it before i would pay money, as with any other full priced game to unlock a no trade standard league with it's own economy instead of having balance dictated by RMT players. Can you explain to me why they would not just do that? I know exactly why, it cuts into the profits of their RMT shareholders. people that say well if you don't like it just play SSF, fine balance SSF economy differently than trade league and i will. No skin off their nose, and if they don't like that we can just say just play trade league. Isn't that the same reasoning they use?

They don't remove trading because it would cause players to leave the game.

Say they remove trading and balance everything around SSF with no rarity gear. With the way all the other systems interact, like "crafting", people who play say 10 hours a week will make no progress through the game and will quit because they'll never see endgame. On the other hand, people that no-life the game and streamers will blast through the game even faster than they do now and they'll quit even earlier into a league.

In the former case, they lose a huge chunk of their audience and thus lose those chances at a person spending a few bucks on a whim on some tab or cosmetic. That adds up quick. In the latter case, they lose all that free advertising they get from streamers, and they lose the mega fans that potentially spend hundreds/thousands on a single game.

Obviously there's myriad solutions to fix the above problems, but every day they spend prototyping stuff is a day they lose fixing other gameplay issues and making league content.

I personally would like a Last Epoch style approach. Balance the game around trade as a baseline, but then let people choose between that and a self-found mode with boosted drop rates and other bonuses. People can still play with whoever they want, but that player's drops are designated as whatever mode they've chosen. For people that want to have the worst experience, have a separate SSF mode like they do now which is basically the trade mode but with no other players to trade with.

That's a ton of work though, so I offered a band-aid solution in my previous post. Just throw in an AH, but harshly limit the rate at which players can trade, or more importantly re-trade, either through gold costs or cooldowns. It's a quick and dirty solution that would appease a large number of trade players, and wouldn't immediately destroy the economy like a completely free AH would.

[Purromi]

Publicado originalmente por Pixel:

I fully agree with Chris' early trade manifesto and believe instead of making Trading super easy and expose it to tons of abuse they should instead make drops better. I'm hoping this game is nothing like PoE 1 in that regard because as the manifesto says far fewer people engage with that trading system that heavily if still true, and that makes the game too heavily about trade rather than playing the game and getting some upgrades. Haven't seen much said really about trading in PoE 2 cause everything seems to say no one is sure yet how it will play out.

Understand the crafting system is important and the currency market helps a lot with this, the gold system eases things up quite a bit too, but there really needs to be a way to get better drops rather than have so few trading becomes the main part of gear acquisition.

Diablo 3 did this and the drops obviously sucked and was balanced heavily around the real money auction house. I'm sure there were a lot that loved that for obvious reasons, but a game heavily based around trade to get those great items ruins it for me.

This doesn't mean it needs to go the route of very limited trading like D4 or other games and I'm not saying restrict trade. I'm just hoping that philosophy of wanting better and more iterative upgrades over time still applies. Every league there's all these builds that say just go buy these uniques and I'm left wondering how in the world people have dozens of chaos orbs or whatever in the first few hours. But the biggest issue is having to meet up with someone in their hideout or wherever and give them and item in exchange for currency in order to get that build going. This doesn't feel good at all to me. I think you shouldn't have to rely on this to get everything you need, perhaps some things but not everything.

Anyway I'm sure I'll get told to get lost and you all love this clumsy trade system so much. I just think it kills the game for those of us that just want to play, gear up, use crafting to further tweak things, and get an interesting build going.

it's like in poe 1 with the same issuess but during poe 1 EA.

[Skyward]

Publicado originalmente por Pixel:

I fully agree with Chris' early trade manifesto and believe instead of making Trading super easy and expose it to tons of abuse they should instead make drops better.

The idea that implementing an easy trade system (such as an in-game auction house) will expose the system to tons of abuse is total nonsense. Just look at what the trade system has devolved into thus far. It's a nonsensical manifesto designed to fit flawed logic nothing more.

[CymTyr]

The reason people use RMT sites is because they're lazy, and don't want to item hunt in an item hunting game. It's very easy to ban botters and people using their services. It's a matter of whether or not they want to.

When I played Lineage 2 back in the day, they purposely did not ban botters because that was 90% of their playerbase. That's also why D2R doesn't do it. I can't speak for GGG, but I can assure you that using RMT to shortcut the game removes almost all the fun from it.

Kind of hard to flex epeen when you paid dollars for the epeen. It's a pretend epeen you didn't earn yourself.

[Pixel]

Publicado originalmente por Skyward:

Publicado originalmente por Pixel:

I fully agree with Chris' early trade manifesto and believe instead of making Trading super easy and expose it to tons of abuse they should instead make drops better.

The idea that implementing an easy trade system (such as an in-game auction house) will expose the system to tons of abuse is total nonsense. Just look at what the trade system has devolved into thus far. It's a nonsensical manifesto designed to fit flawed logic nothing more.

Very well then let's do it!

[i_m_bored2death]

Publicado originalmente por instant:

just play SSF, its the better way to play the game anyway.

if you want something you have to farm it, in the game that is about farming.

getting lucky currency drops early on to buy your gear so you can speedrun the game is bad.

SSF is not fun. I don't have a SSF character but i refuse to use the trading site. Endgame is basically 3 steps forward two steps backwards. Playing endgame like it is now feels like a chore which is why i stopped playing all together. And i am sure they will soon nerf campaign even further because the "veterans" will complain that leveling takes to long and they don't feel like doing this every league. It's already been nerfed into oblivion. And with that they will kill the only fun part of the game, atleast for those that didn't speedran it. It's specifically designed to not be able to level effectively without trading. Even staunch defenders of the game and of the trading site say the game plays like a gotcha game. And it is. They designed the game in a way that it funnels players into the trading site. And my guess is that they are running RMT websites, the premium stash is not enough to justify this level of jury rigging, not when they have 500$ packs for sale. This is what all ARPGs have become. All this league nonsense is incentive to keep people spending money in a never ending race for bragging rights while devs run RMT websites on the side, and tweek their game for optimal RMT sales. Atleast diablo immortal was honest about what it is, and who is selling you the items.