An obvious. but overlooked, issue.

[Athanasius]

So... I have been excited for PoE2. I was hopeful but... There is a stark issue with this game that gives me a long pause.

Seeing that the enemy this game is an indigenous group that is rich in culture and history, I see nothing that is depicting this indigenous group in a positive light. At first glance and what little play we've seen and had, there is no positive representation of any worth. Nothing redeeming of the indigenous group they had co-oped in a negative light. Nearly every representation of this group is negative across the globe in public media and wrongfully portrayed.

In summary, it is blatantly racist. The game depicts an indigenous group being massacred by Europeans, a common troupe. Its rather insulting and jarring. To me, I couldn't play this game, at least not without some positive representation as a new valid class or a much more positively portrayed faction representing this indigenous group. The people represented have their theology, culture, and people still alive today. Hell, its easy to search these groups and find people to converse with and deeply learn from.

I'd like to know the community's thoughts. I personally do not see an issue with enriching the game with some good representation and it would be a win for everyone. Creating a rich experience with PoE's awesome game as well as a rich new culture to immerse ourselves in.

[Graawk]

Woke up, fell outta bed, dragged a comb across my head. Found my way down stairs and drank a cup, and looking up I noticed it was late. Found my coat, grabbed my hat, made the bus in seconds flat. Found my way upstairs and had a smoke, and somebody spoke and I went into a dream. ahh ahh ahh.

[Lunela]

Originally posted by Orb of Me:

It's essential to recognize that Path of Exile 2 is a work of fiction, and the world within the game is intentionally crafted with its own narrative, cultures, and lore. If players start to see parallels between the game’s factions and real-world cultures, that’s a personal interpretation, not the intention of the developers. The game's setting is not meant to reflect real-world history or political issues, but rather to build a rich, immersive fantasy world.

The distinction between reality and fiction is vital, and it’s concerning when players project real-world grievances onto a game, which could lead to missing the point of a fictional narrative. It’s important for individuals to understand that fantasy worlds are free from the constraints of real-world politics and history. Instead of focusing on how the game may or may not align with real-world ideals, we should appreciate it for its imaginative storytelling and the freedom it offers within its fantasy universe. Games are not obligated to adhere to real-world sensibilities or expectations, and the expectation that they should is an oversimplification of what gaming as an art form is about.

Exactly this. I used to be a sociology educator. I know that you've probably been taught to critically examine all realms of fantasy and fiction with a "socially-aware" political lens, but I urge you to maybe rethink whether this is necessary for every and most games. If we did this, we would get nothing but condescending corporate-inspired stories like what appears to be the new Intergalactic, and developers would be consistently stifled and walking on eggshells (they already are, unless they work at Larian or Fromsoft). You don't have to be like this. Much less jumping to the assumptions that you do and likely speaking on Indigenous people's behalf. It isn't helpful, and your saviorism isn't necessary in 2024. It just comes off as another type of racism. You're essentializing all tribes together and comparing them to a fictional group in a game.

The levels with the Vaal are the most beautiful and interesting parts of the game so far. They are not just evil bad-guys like you say they are. Read the lore and invest more in the dialogue. Give devs the freedom to express themselves without pressure and make games that they love. Even the final boss Doryani is also not just an evil "big bad" if you really listen to his dialogue during the fight.

[thawn4444]

the Vaal culture never existed in the real world. . . please correct me with proof if I am wrong

Also there are no Europeans in the game, Europe does not exist in Wraclast.

[VoiD]

Hold on let me look for a bugs bunny clip

[Graawk]

Doh! We've been gypped by uppity morons. (throws digital peanuts)

[Vost]

Originally posted by Lunela:

Originally posted by Orb of Me:

It's essential to recognize that Path of Exile 2 is a work of fiction, and the world within the game is intentionally crafted with its own narrative, cultures, and lore. If players start to see parallels between the game’s factions and real-world cultures, that’s a personal interpretation, not the intention of the developers. The game's setting is not meant to reflect real-world history or political issues, but rather to build a rich, immersive fantasy world.

The distinction between reality and fiction is vital, and it’s concerning when players project real-world grievances onto a game, which could lead to missing the point of a fictional narrative. It’s important for individuals to understand that fantasy worlds are free from the constraints of real-world politics and history. Instead of focusing on how the game may or may not align with real-world ideals, we should appreciate it for its imaginative storytelling and the freedom it offers within its fantasy universe. Games are not obligated to adhere to real-world sensibilities or expectations, and the expectation that they should is an oversimplification of what gaming as an art form is about.

Exactly this. I used to be a sociology educator. I know that you've probably been taught to critically examine all realms of fantasy and fiction with a "socially-aware" political lens, but I urge you to maybe rethink whether this is necessary for every and most games. If we did this, we would get nothing but condescending corporate-inspired stories like what appears to be the new Intergalactic, and developers would be consistently stifled and walking on eggshells (they already are, unless they work at Larian or Fromsoft). You don't have to be like this. Much less jumping to the assumptions that you do and likely speaking on Indigenous people's behalf. It isn't helpful, and your saviorism isn't necessary in 2024. It just comes off as another type of racism. You're essentializing all tribes together and comparing them to a fictional group in a game.

The levels with the Vaal are the most beautiful and interesting parts of the game so far. They are not just evil bad-guys like you say they are. Read the lore and invest more in the dialogue. Give devs the freedom to express themselves without pressure and make games that they love. Even the final boss Doryani is also not just an evil "big bad" if you really listen to his dialogue during the fight.

So, I wanted to answer to Lunela and Orb of Me because you made your point but, even if you call it an oversimplified vision of arts, I think you are the one oversimplifying this. I mean, sure, PoE is a world of fiction with its own lore, everyone knows that. However:
1) You can't deny that this fantasy world is greatly inspired by real world people and stories. For instance (and there are many more examples), the High Templars of Oriath in PoE 1 are greatly inspired by nazi or at least the common and cliché depiction of nazism (long rectangle red flag with a round white dot in which are drawn black lines, clear reference to antic empires notably in architecture, the fact that they are actually the third grand empire, human experimentation, dream of purity, etc.). Whether it is intentional or not is difficult to affirm but, with the attention to detail of the devs, I tend to say it is. What I want to say here is that imaginary worlds are not coming from nowhere, there are inspired by reality.
2) You can't deny that we build our representation of the world through images, story and feelings, both consciously and unconsciously. Fiction is a powerful way to tell stories and make us feel things. Moreover, it is known that we are not pure reason beings and that emotions and reason are the two sides of the same coin. Of course, I am not saying fiction is the only mechanism that forges our representation of the world, far from it, but it is clearly one of them.
Thus, claiming a clear separation between imaginary and real worlds is an oversimplification.

Now, is it that serious? To be clear, I am not saying that you shouldn't play PoE2, nor that you should be ashamed for liking it, nor that the devs or anyone are racist, or anything like that. I just feel like some people (including me) have fair concerns about the game story and narrative, and it is interesting that those concerns are discussed. Sure it is personal, everyone has his/her own moral compass, but the aim is just to start thinking about why we think what we think.

To me, the concerns are not in the lack of positive representation as everything in PoE is negative, that is the point of Dark Fantasy as a genre. However, I regret that most of the representations are coming from old clichés and tropes. I can quote some examples :
- The mages being girls and the warriors beings boys. Exception for the Maraketh, but why are women warrior like Asala way less dressed than man soldiers?
- The only black playable character being the warrior looking like a barbarian. Sure it is a Karui, it is a reference to Maori, but it doesn't have to be like that. As everyone said, PoE is a work of fiction, so it could be anything. Moreover, why is the character not so black on the ascendancy class digital paintings?
- The fact that we come with "treasure hunters" in the jungle in Act 3 to pillage some old ruins with little or no concern for the people who live here. Come on, Harrison Ford is old now.
- The fact that the Vaals are clearly inspired by an old and cliché representation of the Aztecs, with human sacrifices etc.
- The fact that we are eradicating an entire Vaal city with a "they started first" reason and an acolyte who's wearing a Conquistador inspired helmet. I am really uncomfortable with that. It felt better when I was going back to destroy a Nazi-inspired High Templar society who exiled me, freeing slaves in the process, even if at the end it is the just the cycle of violence repeating eternally with the re-emergence of Kitava.

So yeah, I really like the game, both games actually. I preferred the story of the first one as, even if not perfect, the story and narrative were way less concerning. It was more than ten years ago... I was hoping for enhancement on this part for PoE2 but, in my opinion, it got worse. Play it, don't play it, that is not my point here. Just hear people concerns. And Lunala, I am not sure if I prefer condescending corporate-inspired stories or old eculated-cliché-fantasy stories.

[Cyrovar]

Originally posted by Vost:

Originally posted by Lunela:

Exactly this. I used to be a sociology educator. I know that you've probably been taught to critically examine all realms of fantasy and fiction with a "socially-aware" political lens, but I urge you to maybe rethink whether this is necessary for every and most games. If we did this, we would get nothing but condescending corporate-inspired stories like what appears to be the new Intergalactic, and developers would be consistently stifled and walking on eggshells (they already are, unless they work at Larian or Fromsoft). You don't have to be like this. Much less jumping to the assumptions that you do and likely speaking on Indigenous people's behalf. It isn't helpful, and your saviorism isn't necessary in 2024. It just comes off as another type of racism. You're essentializing all tribes together and comparing them to a fictional group in a game.

The levels with the Vaal are the most beautiful and interesting parts of the game so far. They are not just evil bad-guys like you say they are. Read the lore and invest more in the dialogue. Give devs the freedom to express themselves without pressure and make games that they love. Even the final boss Doryani is also not just an evil "big bad" if you really listen to his dialogue during the fight.

So, I wanted to answer to Lunela and Orb of Me because you made your point but, even if you call it an oversimplified vision of arts, I think you are the one oversimplifying this. I mean, sure, PoE is a world of fiction with its own lore, everyone knows that. However:
1) You can't deny that this fantasy world is greatly inspired by real world people and stories. For instance (and there are many more examples), the High Templars of Oriath in PoE 1 are greatly inspired by nazi or at least the common and cliché depiction of nazism (long rectangle red flag with a round white dot in which are drawn black lines, clear reference to antic empires notably in architecture, the fact that they are actually the third grand empire, human experimentation, dream of purity, etc.). Whether it is intentional or not is difficult to affirm but, with the attention to detail of the devs, I tend to say it is. What I want to say here is that imaginary worlds are not coming from nowhere, there are inspired by reality.
2) You can't deny that we build our representation of the world through images, story and feelings, both consciously and unconsciously. Fiction is a powerful way to tell stories and make us feel things. Moreover, it is known that we are not pure reason beings and that emotions and reason are the two sides of the same coin. Of course, I am not saying fiction is the only mechanism that forges our representation of the world, far from it, but it is clearly one of them.
Thus, claiming a clear separation between imaginary and real worlds is an oversimplification.

Now, is it that serious? To be clear, I am not saying that you shouldn't play PoE2, nor that you should be ashamed for liking it, nor that the devs or anyone are racist, or anything like that. I just feel like some people (including me) have fair concerns about the game story and narrative, and it is interesting that those concerns are discussed. Sure it is personal, everyone has his/her own moral compass, but the aim is just to start thinking about why we think what we think.

To me, the concerns are not in the lack of positive representation as everything in PoE is negative, that is the point of Dark Fantasy as a genre. However, I regret that most of the representations are coming from old clichés and tropes. I can quote some examples :
- The mages being girls and the warriors beings boys. Exception for the Maraketh, but why are women warrior like Asala way less dressed than man soldiers?
- The only black playable character being the warrior looking like a barbarian. Sure it is a Karui, it is a reference to Maori, but it doesn't have to be like that. As everyone said, PoE is a work of fiction, so it could be anything. Moreover, why is the character not so black on the ascendancy class digital paintings?
- The fact that we come with "treasure hunters" in the jungle in Act 3 to pillage some old ruins with little or no concern for the people who live here. Come on, Harrison Ford is old now.
- The fact that the Vaals are clearly inspired by an old and cliché representation of the Aztecs, with human sacrifices etc.
- The fact that we are eradicating an entire Vaal city with a "they started first" reason and an acolyte who's wearing a Conquistador inspired helmet. I am really uncomfortable with that. It felt better when I was going back to destroy a Nazi-inspired High Templar society who exiled me, freeing slaves in the process, even if at the end it is the just the cycle of violence repeating eternally with the re-emergence of Kitava.

So yeah, I really like the game, but there are some concerns that are legit. Play it, don't play it, that is not my point here. Just hear people concerns. And Lunala, I am not sure if I prefer condescending corporate-inspired stories or old eculated-cliché-fantasy stories.

Nothing in a video game needs to be an accurate representation of a culture IRL. Being overly sensitive is a form of racism, and your privilege is showing by the fact that you're trying to be a white savior for a made up population in a made up video game.

Feel less, bro. Life's not as serious as the media has led you to believe.

[Desync]

Typical award farmer

[Bones]

I think you should seek professional help if these are the types of things you are thinking about when playing a video game.

[YourNewBFF]

Yeah! While we are at it I want some transgender representation and I would like to see a playable character with a physical disability. Nothing would be more fun than slowly rolling around the map in a wheelchair stopping frequently to slay enemies. These game devs are stuck in the stone age and really need to update their world views to align with .1 percent of the population. Nothing says progress like alienating the majority for the minority!

[lee]

Fantasy is supposed to be an escape from reality. And even if stories are inspired from the real world, it is only because it is the only reality we know and that's it. There would be no art or literature of the unrealistic sort (i.e., fiction) if artists and writers just create replicas of reality. We have journalists, non-fiction writers, architects, and realists for that.

[DM]

Originally posted by Athanasius:

So... I have been excited for PoE2. I was hopeful but... There is a stark issue with this game that gives me a long pause.

Seeing that the enemy this game is an indigenous group that is rich in culture and history, I see nothing that is depicting this indigenous group in a positive light. At first glance and what little play we've seen and had, there is no positive representation of any worth. Nothing redeeming of the indigenous group they had co-oped in a negative light. Nearly every representation of this group is negative across the globe in public media and wrongfully portrayed.

In summary, it is blatantly racist. The game depicts an indigenous group being massacred by Europeans, a common troupe. Its rather insulting and jarring. To me, I couldn't play this game, at least not without some positive representation as a new valid class or a much more positively portrayed faction representing this indigenous group. The people represented have their theology, culture, and people still alive today. Hell, its easy to search these groups and find people to converse with and deeply learn from.

I'd like to know the community's thoughts. I personally do not see an issue with enriching the game with some good representation and it would be a win for everyone. Creating a rich experience with PoE's awesome game as well as a rich new culture to immerse ourselves in.

You are clearly looking for racism where there is none. Your vocabulary is just a hotbed of red flags. It's like you swallowed a stack of DEI handouts.

Grow up, form an opinion thats not related to ideological BS, and either play the game or go back to BlueSky.

[Leon]

Originally posted by Bones:

I think you should seek professional help if these are the types of things you are thinking about when playing a video game.

There is no Mental health system in the US so are you surprised the amount *Special people* around.

[KillJoy]

I am not getting it. Slaughtering thousands upon thousands of mobs, burning them alive with fire spells, electrocuting them to death, freezing them and shatter them into pieces, making them bleed to death, none of that bothers you.
But the alleged racism bothers you?

[DirtyMick]

Oh god. I think you have to separate fantasy from real life in your head. They're not real. They don't represent any culture known to us on Earth. The game isn't even set on planet earth. It's entirely fantasy.